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Someone can fact check me but I think this is right, military personal get paid about the same as GM workers do currently.
They get paid an insane amount more if you factor in everything, interest rates for example for them ever right now are 1.7-2.3% via an exploit. Guy I know bought a car for 17.5% and the next day had the interest lowered to near nothing
one of the most effective political con jobs over the last 50 years has been the steady and effective effort to convince the American middle class to vote and take positions against their own best interests but beneficial to the interests of those significantly wealthier than them.
quality generally-available healthcare that isn’t tied to your job and doesn’t bankrupt people: bad.
free or affordable four-year degrees or quality vocational training: bad
tax burdens that disproportionally fall on lower and more middle income families: good
Caps on social security taxes that massively benefit the wealthy at the expense on lower and more middle income families: good.
And so on. It’s clearly working, as you can see from many posts in this very thread. Most people are an unexpected pink slip on a Friday away from being royally screwed as soon as the following Monday, yet they’ve let themselves be manipulated to think it will never happen to them and that it’s ok that it happens to others.
remember, folks, that rising tides float all boats. It doesn’t need to be a zero sum game. Others don’t all need to lose for us all - individually and collectively- to win.
Then remove all income taxes and make it excise tax only, that way NO ONE can dodge paying taxes whenever they buy or transact. Make deferment impossible, but also make it so that if you spend nothing you are taxed nothing
one of the most effective political con jobs over the last 50 years has been the steady and effective effort to convince the American middle class to vote and take positions against their own best interests but beneficial to the interests of those significantly wealthier than them.
i agree but not at all for the reasons you state. people will vote for some hand out now not realizing they will pay WAY more for it down the road.
quality generally-available healthcare that isn’t tied to your job and doesn’t bankrupt people: bad.
the country has 'free' medicate for 65+ and 'free' medicaid for those with little to no income. there was about 10% with no health insurance, either because their situation makes it impossible or they simply choose to not get it (typically young people willing to take the risk). and it was 10% before AND after the 'affordable' care act, an act with as orwellian a name as the recent "inflation reduction act".
free or affordable four-year degrees or quality vocational training: bad
first of all, nothing is free. notice how the more 'loans', 'grants', 'subsidies' etc for education, the more tuition and other costs skyrocket. and higher education is happy to promote worthless degrees leaving students with heavy debt. the whole thing is a disaster beyond the scope of clublexus.
tax burdens that disproportionally fall on lower and more middle income families: good
the is just factually incorrect. half of americans pay NO federal income tax. also, millions get REFUNDS despite paying NO taxes. that is an obscenity, and just another welfare program. and the more welfare programs, the more corporations realize they don't have to pay as much. minimum wage laws just encourage automation. it will be interesting to see how california's $20/hr mandate for fast food workers works out.
Caps on social security taxes that massively benefit the wealthy at the expense on lower and more middle income families: good.
this one i wholeheartedly agree with you on. definitely politicians were bought off on this one.
Most people are an unexpected pink slip on a Friday away from being royally screwed as soon as the following Monday, yet they’ve let themselves be manipulated to think it will never happen to them and that it’s ok that it happens to others.
this is true, but you can also blame this on relentless clever and manipulative marketing making people think they can have it all, especially through credit cards, loans, etc. so as you say, if a pink slip comes, they are left scrambling. education has only made this worse, leaving people now believing choices shouldn't have any consequences. i have always assumed i could be unemployed at any time, and needed to have savings to carry me for a good while and cashflow below my means. most people of course don't do that. i loathe the relentless marketing not only by corporations but also by government ("we're here for you", "we support 'working families'", etc).
remember, folks, that rising tides float all boats. It doesn’t need to be a zero sum game. Others don’t all need to lose for us all - individually and collectively- to win.
true, and capitalism doesn't seek to demonize one group of people over another. it literally doesn't care. that's certainly not compassionate though, and we don't live in a capitalist society anyway. government does have a role in helping people in trouble through no fault of their own (natural disasters is a good example). but again, there's so much manipulation and lies, the general public has no chance.
back to the uaw - it has shown over and over how it overreaches and also has endless corruption problems so i have no sympathy. the false division of "labor" and "management" is so archaic but certainly "management" has not done enough to end old dogma.
first of all, nothing is free. notice how the more 'loans', 'grants', 'subsidies' etc for education, the more tuition and other costs skyrocket. and higher education is happy to promote worthless degrees leaving students with heavy debt. the whole thing is a disaster beyond the scope of clublexus.
Government spending doesn't exist it's all tax payer spending. Outside of a few edge cases government does not generate wealth they take it. If the opposite was true then the more government got involved the richer everyone would be. There are zero examples of this happening.
this is just factually incorrect. half of americans pay NO federal income tax. also, millions get REFUNDS despite paying NO taxes. that is an obscenity, and just another welfare program. and the more welfare programs, the more corporations realize they don't have to pay as much. minimum wage laws just encourage automation. it will be interesting to see how california's $20/hr mandate for fast food workers works out.
Top 10% contributes to 75% of all tax revenue. I forget the exact figure but you're right the bottom half of earners pay almost no taxes.
Back to the UAW if they really wanted to partner with their boss they would structure in revenue sharing based on performance. But that would make them take on responsibility the opposite of what they are all about.
It’s a mistake to focus only on federal taxes because lower income individuals are still subject to payroll taxes (FICA/OASDI), state and local taxes, sales taxes and others and will end up with disproportionately high effective rates compared to much wealthier individuals / households (as noted above, many of these taxes are due on only the first 160k of income]. The higher standard deduction also takes a large number of low income families out of the federal tax net. These people, let’s not forget, are literally living in poverty so it’s not exactly a bad thing for them to not have to pay any federal tax. But that small detail gets glossed over when you talk about who pays the lions share of federal tax collected.
So yes, high earners absolutely pay the lions share of federal tax when viewed from a dollar perspective. The position is different, however, when you look the effective rate of the highest earners. It’s disproportionately low.
A September 2021 study from the Office of Management and Budget and the Council of Economic Advisers estimated the average effective federal tax rate of the 400 wealthiest families to be 8.2%. You can find their paper on whitehouse.gov.
Warren Buffett wasn’t joking when he said his secretary has a higher effective tax rate than him.
And next time you post the who pays most federal tax dollars stats, stop and think about the sleight of hand that accompanies it. It’s designed to mislead. And it works because it’s targeted at the most uncritical thinkers.
Last edited by swajames; Sep 17, 2023 at 11:07 PM.
so what does anyone think the outcome of the strike will be?
i'm sure they'll all 'settle' as they always have, and the large pay and other increases will result in higher car prices which will make them less competitive.
i've read about a 4 day week request, but is that 4 x 8 hours, or 4 x 10 hours like other 4 day week plans? if 4 x 8 that's a 20% reduction in work time. assume this will only encourage the 'big 3' to move more production off shore or automate faster.
so what does anyone think the outcome of the strike will be?
i'm sure they'll all 'settle' as they always have, and the large pay and other increases will result in higher car prices which will make them less competitive.
i've read about a 4 day week request, but is that 4 x 8 hours, or 4 x 10 hours like other 4 day week plans? if 4 x 8 that's a 20% reduction in work time. assume this will only encourage the 'big 3' to move more production off shore or automate faster.
I bolded what I believe will be the end result. No matter what the outcome of the strike is.
so what does anyone think the outcome of the strike will be?
I won't try and be a prophet on this one, or predict anything definite, and, at Dave's request, we'll try and stay away from political talk, but I think that one likely outcome is that Mary Barra will finally be removed as CEO of GM. Although this time the UAW is targeting all of the Big Three instead of just GM, it is still the second major UAW strike against GM in only four years, when she was at the helm and making the decisions. She has cost GM a LOT of money in lost revenue from the strikes, when she probably could have prevented them. Although I'll admit that the Encore GX was an excellent addition for Buick (it certainly sold me), and the Bolt EUV was an excellent reasonably-priced BEV, in general, her obsession with electrifying everything in the future, and of making the American-market Buick Division all crossovers, were major blunders. Cadillac, unlike rival Lincoln, has also suffered from its recent obsession of chasing the Germans in design/conception instead of being what Cadillac is supposed to be.....classic American Luxury. Another obsession she had was closing so many of the sedan-producing plants, which basically led to the last big strike in 2019. From what I've seen, the more she has stayed at the helm, the worse things got for GM. My guess is that she won't last much longer...and she will retire with a huge benefit/severance package, while still trying to deny basic pensions to the rank-and-file UAW.
Last edited by mmarshall; Sep 18, 2023 at 08:07 AM.
Unions afford below average employees to remain employed while reducing the quality of the products which ultimately hurts the company/employer.
Whether its UAW, teacher’s union, construction unions etc - there tends to be a lot of corruption and many workers take advantage of union privileges and do subpar work.
The big 3 are poorly run companies historically with Ford being the only one that has had decent leadership.
Ford currently has a good CEO in Jim Farley but he has a very difficult road ahead.
GM needs to fire Mary Barra who is horrendous.
Stillantis is now run by Europeans so hopefully Jeep / Ram can still remain successful. Dodge/Chrysler are pretty much ready to close shop at this point.
Honda, Toyota, BMW, MB etc all have manufacturing plants in US and their production quality is much better than what UAW workers put out while making more $$$.
Stillantis is now run by Europeans so hopefully Jeep / Ram can still remain successful.
Problem is.....Stellantis is run by Fiat, a corporation with a long history (like Chrysler itself) of indifferent quality in their products.
Dodge/Chrysler are pretty much ready to close shop at this point.
Not sure I agree....Dodge sells a lot of Chargers/Challengers, and Chrysler a lot of Pacificas. And the Charger and Challenger have been in production so long that, on those two vehicles at least, they have finally licked the quality/reliability-gremlins.
Last edited by mmarshall; Sep 18, 2023 at 08:16 AM.
Honda, Toyota, BMW, MB etc all have manufacturing plants in US and their production quality is much better than what UAW workers put out while making more $$$.
I think you've got it backwards. Honda and Toyota make better-built vehicles because their managements answer to Japanese, not American, financiers and major shareholders. Those countries' elites take a long-term view of success. US moneymen squeeze GM and Ford's naughty bits to deliber a bigger profit THIS QUARTER. That's why GM cars are now made of cheap Chinese parts. It's why both companies are out of the sedan business while Toyota now owns it. And it's why their better-supervised and more respectfully treated US workers do a better job, while GM and Ford workers build crap out of the crap parts handed to them, and unite to push back against executives who make it clear they'd sooner toss them in the trash the first chance they get.
Ever hear of the rope at Toyota plants? Any employee can pull it at any time and stop the assembly line if they see a problem. There's a reason that practice originated with a Japanese company, while around the same time, GM was experimenting in Lordstown, Ohio with a factory that ditched almost all the workers for automation that turned out not to work. It bespeaks an attitude. The workers aren't stupid. They see it too, and they respond accordingly. You'll also notice that the non-UAW Ford workers in Hermosillo, Mexico also build cars with crooked lines and crappy fit and finish, under US managers. Guess why.
BTW, about this meme that labor costs are what's breaking the US carmakers' competitiveness:
Problem is.....Stellantis is run by Fiat, a corporation with a long history (like Chrysler itself) of indifferent quality in their products.
No, Stellantis is not run by Fiat. The Stellantis CEO is Carlos Tavares who came from what used to be PSA. John Elkann from the Agnelli family in the Chairman and has a 14% stake but is by no means running the company.
I think you've got it backwards. Honda and Toyota make better-built vehicles because their managements answer to Japanese, not American, financiers and major shareholders. Those countries' elites take a long-term view of success. US moneymen squeeze GM and Ford's naughty bits to deliber a bigger profit THIS QUARTER. That's why GM cars are now made of cheap Chinese parts. It's why both companies are out of the sedan business while Toyota now owns it. And it's why their better-supervised and more respectfully treated US workers do a better job, while GM and Ford workers build crap out of the crap parts handed to them, and unite to push back against executives who make it clear they'd sooner toss them in the trash the first chance they get.
Ever hear of the rope at Toyota plants? Any employee can pull it at any time and stop the assembly line if they see a problem. There's a reason that practice originated with a Japanese company, while around the same time, GM was experimenting in Lordstown, Ohio with a factory that ditched almost all the workers for automation that turned out not to work. It bespeaks an attitude. The workers aren't stupid. They see it too, and they respond accordingly. You'll also notice that the non-UAW Ford workers in Hermosillo, Mexico also build cars with crooked lines and crappy fit and finish, under US managers. Guess why.
BTW, about this meme that labor costs are what's breaking the US carmakers' competitiveness:
Workers need to take some responsibility.
There are a lot of GREAT UAW employees but also many in management and below that take HUGE advantage of the system of being in a Union.
The culture is much different at Toyota/Honda which are different from BMW/MB and different from Tesla.
Again Unions are great idea in a dream world but in practice unfortunately some ppl use that power to ultimately put that company at a disadvantage in the marketplace.
BTW that quote symbolizes how little unions know or care about financial viability of making a profit. 5% is a huge number if that is even accurate and how does that compare to manufacturing costs from competitors or overseas production.
