Another shopper
05-26-13, 12:00 AM
#1
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Another shopper
I've been looking at getting a new car. Over time I have narrowed it down to either a used ES350 or a new Camry XLE (4cyl), so I'm in the $26k or under range. I'm not trying to start an argument about the cars being the same so please forgive the red herring.
I am coming out of a 1999 528i so I'm dealing with a serious change in driving characteristics along with the cockpit differences. Out of these differences, some questions have arisen from my test drive of a 2010. I think I already know the answers, but wanted to get advice from owners.
I have test driven a 2008 Ultra Luxury and a 2010 with Nav. I liked the seat extension of the Ultra Luxury, despite the limited travel. But, I did find the seats comfortable without it. Why did they remove this option from the 2010, aside from the Ultra Luxury package that is?
I noticed on both ES drives that the steering felt incredibly light. Overboosted, I guess. The 2008 I took a 30mph max short drive because of time constraints, so I can't compare the things that tend to appear at higher speeds. The 2010 I took up to 70 on a highway. Both appeared like the steering wheels were either slightly off center and/or moved a lot. It reminded me of, if you've ever driven a pickup truck slowly through a field the steering wheel just kind of rolls right and left with the terrain. It's not a shimmy, but at low speeds it just seems to have a mind of its own. Maybe it's a product of the front wheel drive?
The 2010 at highway speeds (and it was a bit blustery today too) seemed to lightly pull to the left while overall seeming to wander which was exaggerated during wind gusts. My 528i didn't seem to suffer the same symptoms on the same road, so I wonder if it's the Lexus. Do they normally wander?
Both Lexus brake pedals felt/sounded loose and cheap; rattled if you slipped your foot off or tapped it. Is this typical?
Can you set the Nav screen to display the radio all the time, instead of it reverting to Navigation after 10seconds? Lexus sales guy had no clue (bad sign for dealer).
I really like the comfort and quiet of the ES. I probably wouldn't consider it if it had to run on Premium gas, but it appears Regular is fine. As far as I can tell, it's the same as the Camry V6, as others have noted. The Lexus still feels a bit like a boat coming from the BMW, particularly the high belt line, dash and trunk. But, the quiet and comfort are just so nice! Ugh... Anyways, that's my rambling question/statement. Thanks for any feedback!
I am coming out of a 1999 528i so I'm dealing with a serious change in driving characteristics along with the cockpit differences. Out of these differences, some questions have arisen from my test drive of a 2010. I think I already know the answers, but wanted to get advice from owners.
I have test driven a 2008 Ultra Luxury and a 2010 with Nav. I liked the seat extension of the Ultra Luxury, despite the limited travel. But, I did find the seats comfortable without it. Why did they remove this option from the 2010, aside from the Ultra Luxury package that is?
I noticed on both ES drives that the steering felt incredibly light. Overboosted, I guess. The 2008 I took a 30mph max short drive because of time constraints, so I can't compare the things that tend to appear at higher speeds. The 2010 I took up to 70 on a highway. Both appeared like the steering wheels were either slightly off center and/or moved a lot. It reminded me of, if you've ever driven a pickup truck slowly through a field the steering wheel just kind of rolls right and left with the terrain. It's not a shimmy, but at low speeds it just seems to have a mind of its own. Maybe it's a product of the front wheel drive?
The 2010 at highway speeds (and it was a bit blustery today too) seemed to lightly pull to the left while overall seeming to wander which was exaggerated during wind gusts. My 528i didn't seem to suffer the same symptoms on the same road, so I wonder if it's the Lexus. Do they normally wander?
Both Lexus brake pedals felt/sounded loose and cheap; rattled if you slipped your foot off or tapped it. Is this typical?
Can you set the Nav screen to display the radio all the time, instead of it reverting to Navigation after 10seconds? Lexus sales guy had no clue (bad sign for dealer).
I really like the comfort and quiet of the ES. I probably wouldn't consider it if it had to run on Premium gas, but it appears Regular is fine. As far as I can tell, it's the same as the Camry V6, as others have noted. The Lexus still feels a bit like a boat coming from the BMW, particularly the high belt line, dash and trunk. But, the quiet and comfort are just so nice! Ugh... Anyways, that's my rambling question/statement. Thanks for any feedback!
05-26-13, 05:50 AM
#2
Lexus Champion
It sounds like you might be a candidate for something other than an ES350. They've never been known for driving dynamics but are a soft comfortable cruisers. You might be disappointed with one.
Since a Camry XLE is on your radar, have you considered something similar but a better driving car? The new Mazda6, Kia Optima etc. come to mind. Both would give you full factory warranties for a few years.
Shop around, there might be better choices for you.
Since a Camry XLE is on your radar, have you considered something similar but a better driving car? The new Mazda6, Kia Optima etc. come to mind. Both would give you full factory warranties for a few years.
Shop around, there might be better choices for you.
05-26-13, 07:42 AM
#3
I agree with LexBob on this
i picked the ES350 because i do like the get up it has some good power when i need it but i got it becuase i like a boat a smooth ride a highway cruiser
If i was going for more performance and you where more set on a LExus then any other brand maybe a IS or if you want soemthing a bit bigger a GS would be good
Myself i really enjoy a bigger car im a bigger guy i need some room but this doesn't always mean you have to sacrifice power and performance My 07 Es350 is my first Lexus
when i was younger i loved lincolns would go into a Mark VIII or a Continental with a V8 because of the power and luxury they had then in the mid 2000s i switched over to Cadillac and found that high performance and luxury sedan can be in the same car at the same time
i am still looking for that perfect cadillac STS-V that screams at me
but i won't give up my Lexus anytime soon and will probably always be a lexus owner
maybe you should look at a GS you can get some good ones i bet you can find a CPO GS for in your price range it might be a 07 or 08 but thats what i would do if i where in your shoes
i picked the ES350 because i do like the get up it has some good power when i need it but i got it becuase i like a boat a smooth ride a highway cruiser
If i was going for more performance and you where more set on a LExus then any other brand maybe a IS or if you want soemthing a bit bigger a GS would be good
Myself i really enjoy a bigger car im a bigger guy i need some room but this doesn't always mean you have to sacrifice power and performance My 07 Es350 is my first Lexus
when i was younger i loved lincolns would go into a Mark VIII or a Continental with a V8 because of the power and luxury they had then in the mid 2000s i switched over to Cadillac and found that high performance and luxury sedan can be in the same car at the same time
i am still looking for that perfect cadillac STS-V that screams at me
but i won't give up my Lexus anytime soon and will probably always be a lexus owner
maybe you should look at a GS you can get some good ones i bet you can find a CPO GS for in your price range it might be a 07 or 08 but thats what i would do if i where in your shoes
05-26-13, 08:00 AM
#4
Yes you can set the radio, a/c and other views to be viewed without the defaulting to navigation (one button hit in the menu). The steering feel is light versus the BMW but it drives easy, gets good gas mileage and is a car that is so quiet and rides smoothly. There are times that you just want to get to a destination as calmly as possible. The tendency to pull is probably an alignment issue as these cars are used and most likely did not get an alignment prior to prepping for sale. My opinion: I would go for the new Camry as it is new with all of the wonderful things that go along with a new car.
05-26-13, 08:30 PM
#5
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Appreciate the advice everyone. I guess I should have stated clearly that I chose the ES and Camry because I want a quiet and comfortable ride. I take several long drives a year to visit family. While the BMW was/is a great handling car, I loved it for the quiet, smooth highway cruising. It drives like it's on rails. Never had to make micro-corrections. The ES is purportedly a great highway cruiser, but from my test drive, it seemed to wander, especially when there were wind gusts.
Garsarno: Thanks for answering the Navigation screen question. I figured there had to be a setting somewhere. I am leaning towards the Camry for that "new" reason, but in driving the two back to back, the Lexus seats are more comfortable. The Camry's were a little hard in comparison. I thought the wind noise was fairly close between the two, but the Lexus is definitely quieter. I agree on the alignment possibility too. It's just one of those things where I thought asking owners would be of benefit. The wandering is more what concerned me. My BMW has given me fits through the years with shimmys. It's so sensitive to road imperfections. It'll start shimmying on stretches of road and I spend a few minutes wondering if I've lost a wheel weight until I hit a smoother stretch of road. If the ES has a history of wandering at highway speeds, I don't want to get it. I don't want to spend long drives micro-correcting to keep it in a straight line.
Lexbob: I appreciate the recommendations. I have test driven every sedan under $30k and know the concessions I'm making. I do love my BMW's sportier handling, but I can no longer deal with the seats. Age and a bad back are catching up with me and the seats and low entry are starting to take their toll on me. I'm 6'3" so I have to have the seat all the way down and back, which puts it quite low in the car. I figured out that what I enjoy most about my BMW is the quiet ride. The only cars in my self-imposed price limit that come close to or match it are the ES and Camry (and Avalon, but it won't fit in my tiny garage).
Thumperpup: I don't like the GS. The mpg is worse. They are more expensive. Just never cared for them. If price and gas mileage were no question, I'd get an LS. I'd love a big lumbering sedan with a big V8.
Now, to perhaps clear up my issues/questions, I also have a 2011 RAV4 4cyl. Limited that has similar light steering. I've driven it on a few long trips and it tracks straight as an arrow on the highway and doesn't require a lot of driver input. When I test drove the 2010 ES, it seemed to wander (badly with the wind gusts) and need constant driver input. I wondered if it was normal or perhaps a result of a possible alignment issue. It seemed to lightly pull left, but was going right and left, so...
And the brake pedal. In both cars it sounded like cheap, loose tin metal if you tapped it or slipped your foot off to release it. Is that normal?
Garsarno: Thanks for answering the Navigation screen question. I figured there had to be a setting somewhere. I am leaning towards the Camry for that "new" reason, but in driving the two back to back, the Lexus seats are more comfortable. The Camry's were a little hard in comparison. I thought the wind noise was fairly close between the two, but the Lexus is definitely quieter. I agree on the alignment possibility too. It's just one of those things where I thought asking owners would be of benefit. The wandering is more what concerned me. My BMW has given me fits through the years with shimmys. It's so sensitive to road imperfections. It'll start shimmying on stretches of road and I spend a few minutes wondering if I've lost a wheel weight until I hit a smoother stretch of road. If the ES has a history of wandering at highway speeds, I don't want to get it. I don't want to spend long drives micro-correcting to keep it in a straight line.
Lexbob: I appreciate the recommendations. I have test driven every sedan under $30k and know the concessions I'm making. I do love my BMW's sportier handling, but I can no longer deal with the seats. Age and a bad back are catching up with me and the seats and low entry are starting to take their toll on me. I'm 6'3" so I have to have the seat all the way down and back, which puts it quite low in the car. I figured out that what I enjoy most about my BMW is the quiet ride. The only cars in my self-imposed price limit that come close to or match it are the ES and Camry (and Avalon, but it won't fit in my tiny garage).
Thumperpup: I don't like the GS. The mpg is worse. They are more expensive. Just never cared for them. If price and gas mileage were no question, I'd get an LS. I'd love a big lumbering sedan with a big V8.
Now, to perhaps clear up my issues/questions, I also have a 2011 RAV4 4cyl. Limited that has similar light steering. I've driven it on a few long trips and it tracks straight as an arrow on the highway and doesn't require a lot of driver input. When I test drove the 2010 ES, it seemed to wander (badly with the wind gusts) and need constant driver input. I wondered if it was normal or perhaps a result of a possible alignment issue. It seemed to lightly pull left, but was going right and left, so...
And the brake pedal. In both cars it sounded like cheap, loose tin metal if you tapped it or slipped your foot off to release it. Is that normal?
Last edited by BC93; 05-26-13 at 08:33 PM.
05-27-13, 03:37 AM
#6
Appreciate the advice everyone. I guess I should have stated clearly that I chose the ES and Camry because I want a quiet and comfortable ride. I take several long drives a year to visit family. While the BMW was/is a great handling car, I loved it for the quiet, smooth highway cruising. It drives like it's on rails. Never had to make micro-corrections. The ES is purportedly a great highway cruiser, but from my test drive, it seemed to wander, especially when there were wind gusts.
Garsarno: Thanks for answering the Navigation screen question. I figured there had to be a setting somewhere. I am leaning towards the Camry for that "new" reason, but in driving the two back to back, the Lexus seats are more comfortable. The Camry's were a little hard in comparison. I thought the wind noise was fairly close between the two, but the Lexus is definitely quieter. I agree on the alignment possibility too. It's just one of those things where I thought asking owners would be of benefit. The wandering is more what concerned me. My BMW has given me fits through the years with shimmys. It's so sensitive to road imperfections. It'll start shimmying on stretches of road and I spend a few minutes wondering if I've lost a wheel weight until I hit a smoother stretch of road. If the ES has a history of wandering at highway speeds, I don't want to get it. I don't want to spend long drives micro-correcting to keep it in a straight line.
Lexbob: I appreciate the recommendations. I have test driven every sedan under $30k and know the concessions I'm making. I do love my BMW's sportier handling, but I can no longer deal with the seats. Age and a bad back are catching up with me and the seats and low entry are starting to take their toll on me. I'm 6'3" so I have to have the seat all the way down and back, which puts it quite low in the car. I figured out that what I enjoy most about my BMW is the quiet ride. The only cars in my self-imposed price limit that come close to or match it are the ES and Camry (and Avalon, but it won't fit in my tiny garage).
Thumperpup: I don't like the GS. The mpg is worse. They are more expensive. Just never cared for them. If price and gas mileage were no question, I'd get an LS. I'd love a big lumbering sedan with a big V8.
Now, to perhaps clear up my issues/questions, I also have a 2011 RAV4 4cyl. Limited that has similar light steering. I've driven it on a few long trips and it tracks straight as an arrow on the highway and doesn't require a lot of driver input. When I test drove the 2010 ES, it seemed to wander (badly with the wind gusts) and need constant driver input. I wondered if it was normal or perhaps a result of a possible alignment issue. It seemed to lightly pull left, but was going right and left, so...
And the brake pedal. In both cars it sounded like cheap, loose tin metal if you tapped it or slipped your foot off to release it. Is that normal?
Garsarno: Thanks for answering the Navigation screen question. I figured there had to be a setting somewhere. I am leaning towards the Camry for that "new" reason, but in driving the two back to back, the Lexus seats are more comfortable. The Camry's were a little hard in comparison. I thought the wind noise was fairly close between the two, but the Lexus is definitely quieter. I agree on the alignment possibility too. It's just one of those things where I thought asking owners would be of benefit. The wandering is more what concerned me. My BMW has given me fits through the years with shimmys. It's so sensitive to road imperfections. It'll start shimmying on stretches of road and I spend a few minutes wondering if I've lost a wheel weight until I hit a smoother stretch of road. If the ES has a history of wandering at highway speeds, I don't want to get it. I don't want to spend long drives micro-correcting to keep it in a straight line.
Lexbob: I appreciate the recommendations. I have test driven every sedan under $30k and know the concessions I'm making. I do love my BMW's sportier handling, but I can no longer deal with the seats. Age and a bad back are catching up with me and the seats and low entry are starting to take their toll on me. I'm 6'3" so I have to have the seat all the way down and back, which puts it quite low in the car. I figured out that what I enjoy most about my BMW is the quiet ride. The only cars in my self-imposed price limit that come close to or match it are the ES and Camry (and Avalon, but it won't fit in my tiny garage).
Thumperpup: I don't like the GS. The mpg is worse. They are more expensive. Just never cared for them. If price and gas mileage were no question, I'd get an LS. I'd love a big lumbering sedan with a big V8.
Now, to perhaps clear up my issues/questions, I also have a 2011 RAV4 4cyl. Limited that has similar light steering. I've driven it on a few long trips and it tracks straight as an arrow on the highway and doesn't require a lot of driver input. When I test drove the 2010 ES, it seemed to wander (badly with the wind gusts) and need constant driver input. I wondered if it was normal or perhaps a result of a possible alignment issue. It seemed to lightly pull left, but was going right and left, so...
And the brake pedal. In both cars it sounded like cheap, loose tin metal if you tapped it or slipped your foot off to release it. Is that normal?
05-27-13, 05:09 AM
#7
Lead Lap
I don't believe the wandering or brake petal problems you encountered are prevalent in the 2010 model. At least they aren't in mine. The ES is my wife's so I don't drive it often but I had new tires put on it a few days ago for her and thoroughly enjoyed having it for awhile. I'd have one myself except I need the easy access the Venza provides for my golf clubs!
So, do yourself a favor and either negotiate some new Michelin Primacys as part of the deal, or put them on yourself after you buy. You won't be sorry.
Here's a link to a thread here about tires on the ES:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/es3...-of-tires.html
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05-27-13, 06:48 AM
#8
Lexus Champion
You might want to drive a third ES to see how the steering, brake pedal etc. feel to you. If there is improvement in those areas you'll know the ES is a contender for you. If you get the same impression as with the other two ES350's that you drove then the car is probably not for you.
05-27-13, 01:04 PM
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Lexbob: You're right. If these quibbles bother me enough, I won't get the car. I hate to miss out on the comfortable ride though! The steering being the main issue that concerns me. The brake pedal "feel" is fine when stomping down and braking. It's just that it sounded chintzy and poorly put together if you tapped it or wiggled it which made it stick out in a car that is otherwise superbly put together. Made me question the maintenance of the vehicle more than anything. But, wanted to see if maybe it was (what would appear to be) a possible weak design in the vehicle. Sounds like it isn't. Will test drive others before making a final decision.
Thanks everybody!
06-03-13, 11:34 AM
#10
We have one of each - - wife has a brand new Camry XLE on lease for her real estate biz, I purchased my ES350 a few years ago off 3 year lease and now have 60k on the clock.
In my opinion, the ES is a better car - - rides better, quieter, nicer interior finish . . Lexus has a 6cyl, Camry is 4 cyl- remarkably, fuel mileage is about the same but wife has a heavy foot. Michelins on the Lexus, OEM Bridgestones on the Camry. ES rides, handles, stops better but we don't exactly have bad weather for a sharp comparison- but I think the Michelins are a perfect match for this car.
I don't have Nav on the ES- my one regret- so can't speak to that issue, but no complaints on the brake pedals . . ..
This Lexus comes after 5 different Mercedes models including C class, 2 E's, an ML and SL - -it might not have the hype- but it's a better car IMO.
In my opinion, the ES is a better car - - rides better, quieter, nicer interior finish . . Lexus has a 6cyl, Camry is 4 cyl- remarkably, fuel mileage is about the same but wife has a heavy foot. Michelins on the Lexus, OEM Bridgestones on the Camry. ES rides, handles, stops better but we don't exactly have bad weather for a sharp comparison- but I think the Michelins are a perfect match for this car.
I don't have Nav on the ES- my one regret- so can't speak to that issue, but no complaints on the brake pedals . . ..
This Lexus comes after 5 different Mercedes models including C class, 2 E's, an ML and SL - -it might not have the hype- but it's a better car IMO.
06-03-13, 09:42 PM
#11
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We have one of each - - wife has a brand new Camry XLE on lease for her real estate biz, I purchased my ES350 a few years ago off 3 year lease and now have 60k on the clock.
In my opinion, the ES is a better car - - rides better, quieter, nicer interior finish . . Lexus has a 6cyl, Camry is 4 cyl- remarkably, fuel mileage is about the same but wife has a heavy foot. Michelins on the Lexus, OEM Bridgestones on the Camry. ES rides, handles, stops better but we don't exactly have bad weather for a sharp comparison- but I think the Michelins are a perfect match for this car.
I don't have Nav on the ES- my one regret- so can't speak to that issue, but no complaints on the brake pedals . . ..
This Lexus comes after 5 different Mercedes models including C class, 2 E's, an ML and SL - -it might not have the hype- but it's a better car IMO.
In my opinion, the ES is a better car - - rides better, quieter, nicer interior finish . . Lexus has a 6cyl, Camry is 4 cyl- remarkably, fuel mileage is about the same but wife has a heavy foot. Michelins on the Lexus, OEM Bridgestones on the Camry. ES rides, handles, stops better but we don't exactly have bad weather for a sharp comparison- but I think the Michelins are a perfect match for this car.
I don't have Nav on the ES- my one regret- so can't speak to that issue, but no complaints on the brake pedals . . ..
This Lexus comes after 5 different Mercedes models including C class, 2 E's, an ML and SL - -it might not have the hype- but it's a better car IMO.
When i want a tight ride and GREAT performance i use one of our other cars - the '10 IS-F or '13 Boxster.
06-04-13, 04:02 AM
#12
I had the opportunity recently to rent a brand new (700 miles) Camry. Understandably, it probably isn't fully broken in yet, but the milage in the city was remarkably similar to my ES. Freeway? Well, if you have a long drive it'll beat the ES milage. I'm glad I went with the ES rather than a Camry, even though it is NOT a bad car to drive. It's actually a bit more fun given the suspension, but that fun would wear off quickly.
06-04-13, 04:31 AM
#13
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06-04-13, 01:34 PM
#14
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Appreciate everyones' input. I'm still shopping around. I haven't found the exact vehicle I want. The 2010 ES I mentioned test driving and the dealership just left me with a bad vibe and has solidified my desire for a CPO vehicle.
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