FatherTo1

I have been mulling the idea of replacing our 2013 SWB LS UltraLux with a 2015+ Tesla Model S. Both cars offer something different and desirable to me. I thought maybe a 600hL is the way to go to combine the luxury, space, and comfort of the LS with the instant torque of a Tesla/electric motor. Problem is, I only found two listings for 2013+ LS 600 across the entire nation on CarGurus! Craigslist, Carmax, and Autotrader weren't much help either. There are plenty of listings for 2008 LS 600 but I prefer to keep what I have and add to it. Does anyone have other suggestions on where else to look?

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?mdId=21364&mkId=20070&page=1&perPage=20&rd=99999&searchSource=SORT&shippable-dealers-checkbox=true&showMore=false&sort=year-newest&zc=95742&localVehicles=false

cars.com has 7 listed 2013+, but 2 look like duplicates

FatherTo1

Thanks, Dave! That white one seems nice. I was hoping to snag one with the bamboo trim. I am also setting the budget at roughly 40K and will wait for prices to drop. I knew the 600s are rare but this hard to find?? I guess I shouldn't be surprised as even the right LS 460 takes many months to find. Thanks again for the help.

FatherTo1

Thanks, FunFact. I recently test drove a pair of Model 3s (LR AWD and LR RWD) and a 2015 Model S 70. The AWD Model 3 was the quickest out of the three but not as significantly as the spec sheet would indicate. I also test drove a 2010 600hL a few months ago and felt the pull to 40 MPH was every bit as strong as a Tesla. The 600hL definitely loses out in pure acceleration to a dual motor Model S but the difference isn't as stark against older Model S or standard Model 3.

jainla

LS 600h sales dropped off pretty dramatically after the 2010 model year; due to the cheapness of gas and the general feeling of the public that $30,000 was a bit too much to pay for the 'hybrid premium'. They were pretty much a special order car and were not offered the final year of 4LS sales in the US. When I was searching 5 years ago there were about 30 for sale at any given time in the whole country; and most of them I bet were 2008-2009 models coming off lease. I actually flew out to Texas to drive mine before I pulled the trigger.

In terms of 0-60 performance the 600h is probably equivalent to a 65 or 70 Model S (non-D); however the interior space, luxury features and build/material quality are much higher. I'm still annoyed every time I sit in a Model S at how small the back seat is for such a huge car. The L series cars have cavernous rear seat space; more seemingly than an S or 7 series.

FatherTo1

I just came back from test driving a 2016 Model X 60D at the local Toyota dealership. Surprisingly, the owner or manager there has been buying Teslas from all over the country for cheap and reselling them. I am not sure how s/he is getting them cheap. In any case, the salesperson said they can't make any money selling warranties and that buyers just take the car(s) back to Tesla for service or maintenance work.

The test drive was helpful because I finally got to compare a 6-seat vs 7-seat configuration. On paper, I really liked the 7-seat configuration, but in person I didn't care for it at all -- way too cramped. The 6-seater is much roomier for all occupants. At a rated 6-second 0-60, the Model X 60D still accelerated to freeway speed quicker than our LS but about the same rate as a 600h. I completely agree that the higher capacity Teslas will smoke the 600h but that's fine, I'm not looking for the fastest car on the block. I like the smooth effortless power of the 600h and the CVT. Where the Model X really falls over is fitment and build quality. It was an area I gave the Model S and Model 3 a pass on but the deficiencies are more glaring on the Model X. The front doors slam pretty loudly and are clunky, reminding me of a friend's Ford Ranger in high school. There were also a lot of creaks, moans, and squeaks when operating the powered second-row seats. The 2016 had 20-inch wheels and, at first, I didn't think the ride was too bad and right in the middle of that thought we hit a dip in the road and I was reminded " oh yea, it does ride really harsh over bumps". After the test drive I re-drove the exact same route in the LS and sure enough the LS made those same dips and bumps feel half the size that they were.

I am still torn between going full Tesla or a blend of qualities with a 600h. The astonishing acceleration of Teslas doesn't impress me as much anymore and I wouldn't be flooring it from stoplight to stoplight anyways. Instantaneous torque and acceleration is a given from Tesla and when I start looking past that for more substance, it really is sorely lacking. As much as I like the Model S/X, I am not confident that I'm getting a better car.

SW17LS

Teslas just aren't built at all to the same standard as an LS...you'll think its cool for a while but after a while that will really start to bother you.

FatherTo1

You are often right, Steve, and again this time. I couldn't see past the blistering acceleration during my first Tesla experience. It was such an emotional sensation and dominated my impression of the brand. I still think they make some incredible vehicles and Elon & Co deserve a lot of credit for elevating EVs and challenging the status quo. As you've mentioned before though, in similarly priced segments, buyers expect more beyond pure acceleration. The aerodynamic shape of Teslas helps keep wind noise down but the creaks and rattles are difficult to get past and ignore, and this was on a Model X that was only 2.5-years-old and 39K miles!

I am not really sure what to do. I still find myself perusing Tesla inventory. Rumor has it Tesla will reveal redesigned Model S/X this Summer. It will be interesting to see how much further prices will drop. Worst case is I keep driving an LS, which is not a bad thing at all.

SW17LS

The question is, once the novelty has worn off, how often are you going to do full throttle acceleration runs? The shortcomings of the Tesla compared to the LS you will notice every time you drive it, the interior not being nearly as comfortable or luxurious, the ride not being as good, it not being as soft and quiet, the creaks and rattles...then there's the real drawbacks of living with an electric car, trips and recharging...

RussLS460

New term coined by Tesla owners, "range anxiety."

Oliver Enterprises

All good info above. I consider myself somewhat of an automotive expert. Especially in years past when I was fully immersed working in the field. Nowadays, not so much. Especially when it comes to Tesla. I have a hangup with electric vehicles. If I can't drive to my parents house without stopping (I don't know, 6 hours or something) for a recharge, then I'm out. My parents house is 145 miles or so away. Yeah, maybe a Tesla makes it there. A Leaf wouldn't even make it.

But say I get there and immediately need to go somewhere or do something around town. That happens. I think I would have range anxiety as mentioned above, every time I got in the car. That's a problem for me.

There is an electric vehicle exception. The Volt. It is somewhat like the opposite of a Prius. And in my (former expert) opinion, the Volt is by far the best example of an electric vehicle offered today, and for the last maybe 10 years.

Prius: Gas vehicle with electric assist. Very good concept.
Volt: 100% electrically powered drivetrain, with a gas engine that can serve as a backup generator to power the electric system. A better concept.

If I had a Volt, I could drive it around my home area on electric alone, within it's range, and never tap an ounce of gas. Plug it up overnight, and be good to go another day or 4 (for me, I live very close to work). But if I wanted to drive it across the country, it behaves like a typical gas car. Run it out of its 40 mile range and the gas generator powers the electrical system. And it remains very efficient. But it can run right across the U.S. no problem, just like an LS can. No can do in any Tesla, not without lengthy stops for recharging. Yeah, the drag racing acceleration of a Tesla is good for a giggle. But to me, it's about as useful as the Auto-Park feature on our LS vehicles. Only good for a giggle. I don't prefer to have my lunch slammed against my backbone frequently. I strongly prefer smoothness (and sound).

There's guys on the Volt forum (I saw this years ago, probably different (higher) today) that were tapping on 1,000 mpg and having to put Sta-Bil in their Volt gas tanks because they rarely if ever ran it out of electric range. And were researching (by driving) ways to extend the range. They were doubling the 40 mile range last time I read. A very interesting car, if not a bit small (Corolla sized the one I drove (original Volt)).


Jason Oliver

jainla

It sounds like a plug-in hybrid might be a good choice for you; but aside from the Volt most don't have more than 20 or 30 miles of range. The BMW i3 is a weird little car; and most plug in hybrid owners actually never plug in the car.

Every person I know who owns a Tesla (and I know a few Model S and one each of the X and 3 cars) develops an obsession with where they can charge it. 'Oh we'll park here because there's a charger. Let's stop and have a coffee there's a super charger next door. Let's go to the next town over because they have a charger. Oh let's go to your place can I plug the car in for a bit?'

A new term: Charge Location Desirability. It seems to run your life.

Socal is inundated with Model 3 cars so I'm guessing what superchargers that exist are pretty busy now. Unless you have the ability to install the fast charging solution where you park the car either for work or home I'd think it's too much of a PITA. I was considering the Honda hydrogen car but the distance to the Shell station in West LA which was the only place you could fuel it put me off.

Also the big risk for second hand Teslas is the battery. Replacement is I believe a $10,000 - $20,000 operation and while initial reports are encouraging nobody knows how time will affect the battery's range and capacity. I'm sure aftermarket options will pop up but the 600h battery is I believe a $5700 part and sometimes you can cajole Lexus corporate to pick up some of the cost; and again Toyota has a 20 year history with hybrid tech and NiMh battery management. In California at least it's considered part of the emissions control system so it has to be covered for 10 years.

Again you decide what works for you. The LS has a 30 year record of quality and reliability; and no Tesla has a rear seat ottoman seat with shiatsu massage. However the launch and handling is impressive; and the autopilot is actually useful if you have a punishing commute.

PwrdbyM

I completley agree on the Volt; it had the perfect drivetrain given you could likely get through your normal commute with the electric range but there was no range concerns if you wanted to take a long trip. The 2nd gen added the selector function where you could choose electric or gas at will, especially useful if you had a long highway commute which ended on urban streets, you could hold on to the battery charge for when it was most efficient. Too bad our fellow consumers didn't see it the same way. The Volt is now history. I hope the drivetrain config makes it into future models.

jrmckinley

Sounds like you have driven all of the current Tesla models - I was a bit confused initially from your post because it looked like you had honed in on a Model S but then read this and you're driving an X and saying it's cramped..? Are you looking for a CUV or sedan? And have you explored the options of buying a used Tesla? I posted something in Car Chat a couple of months ago asking about buying used Tesla (because like you, I am intrigued by the thought of moving to a Tesla) and it sounded like a bit of a strange process. If I remember correctly, folks were saying you had to put down a deposit to even see the car, it came with no warranty, etc. It had me scratch the idea of buying one used (from a dealer) off of my list and I have now started doing the math on leasing, financing, or paying cash for a model 3 (thread in Car Chat).

The one thing really holding me back from getting anxious to pull the trigger on Tesla is the anticipation of the Audi ETron GT, which I think is the most stunning car (not just EV) I have seen in a very long time. While it will require you at least doubling your budget, perhaps holding off 18-24 months will be worth it so you can save up some extra money? I think Porsche is also releasing an EV sedan around the same time as the ETron GT release. The only thing I don't like about the ETron GT is the anticipated range of only 248 miles - and just yesterday Tesla announced an upgrade to the Model S which gets you to 370 miles. That is a substantial difference when you consider taking a road trip.

While I agree with Steve's comments about the Tesla acceleration losing its "wow factor", I think the ultimate question is how you plan on using the car. For me, I would be ditching my LS460, inheriting the LX from my wife, and she'd drive the Tesla. She drives about 40-50 miles/day in routine city driving. I imagine we'd take it on road trips of 2-3 hours one way several times per year. For me, the appeal in Tesla is not the acceleration - it's the concept of moving away from a car that requires fuel and the maintenance associated with traditional ICE engine designs. And I absolutely love the technology, ability to have the car updated over WiFi, the screen to control everything, etc. I'd be willing to sacrifice on the luxury feeling of the LS in exchange for some of what a Tesla or other high-end EV will offer.

icon901

While I agree the Volt is a fine design with regards to it's electrical/gas configuration... I don't think it's anywhere near fair to consider it in the same category as the LS with regards to build quality / ride refinement.