Rotors: to replace or not to replace
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,754
Likes: 6
From: Colorado
Never go to chain brake shops. The lifetime warranty doesn't cover labor. So they just keep giving you low quality semi-metallic pads for free. Go to Lexus or Toyota and get the real deal.
I personally do not like ceramic pads that many swear about. They are abrasive to rotors and make lots of squeaky noises when cold. The positive side is that ceramic dissipates heat faster and stop faster compared to other types of pads. Good for the street racers (or wannabes.)
Out of Warranty
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,925
Likes: 13
From: Houston, Republic of Texas
Agree with Harrier - aftermarket ceramic pads are one of the latest marketing ploys to come up with a "superior" product. Like ceramic rotors (now avalable OEM on Porsche) they are outstanding for racing applications, but there is a downside for us mere mortals. Ceramic materials in pads (at least in high concentrations) tend to scour rotors and can be pretty noisy. Quite a few years ago lots of aftermarketeers offered "metallic" or "brass" pads that were more or less successful depending on the manufacturer.
I once put a set of oversized gas-pressurized off-road shocks on a big 3/4-ton 4X4 Suburban after destroying a set of OEMs in about three weeks offroad. I promptly ripped the shock mounts right off the frame rail.
For street use - and that includes all but a handful of us - it's best to stick with OEM parts - things that are designed to work together . . . particularly on critical safety systems.
I once put a set of oversized gas-pressurized off-road shocks on a big 3/4-ton 4X4 Suburban after destroying a set of OEMs in about three weeks offroad. I promptly ripped the shock mounts right off the frame rail.
For street use - and that includes all but a handful of us - it's best to stick with OEM parts - things that are designed to work together . . . particularly on critical safety systems.
CL Community Team
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,319
Likes: 203
From: Miami, Florida
I actually still use OEM pads even for racing. Very good for timed bracket runs. Some of my friends use some aftermarket pads and I have seen a good many of them jerk badly and lose races. With the OEM pads, they are much smoother. Not that there are not good aftermarket pads out there, but I like the OEMs much better than previous experiences with Hawk Performance and EBC pads.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,447
Likes: 9
From: CA
I had this problem before with a new Brembo rotor and ceramic brake pads. As mentioned ceramic brake pads as not build the same. So, I replace it with Akebono premium ceramic brake pads comes with shims and use CRC brake quiet, past 6 months no squek and brake dust is 99% invisible.
A direct quote from http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf30322.htm
One very important point that Hilbrandt stressed is that all ceramics are not the same. Every brake manufacturer uses their own ceramic-based or ceramic-enhanced compounds. The type of ceramics used, the particle size, distribution, hardness and other ingredients that go into a ceramic type of friction material can all vary, even from one vehicle application to another. So ceramics should not be stereotyped or viewed as some type of generic product.
There’s also disagreement over what should and should not be called a ceramic. Ceramic materials include a variety of substances including potassium titanate fibers as well as clay fillers. Many brake manufacturers use clay filler in certain friction linings, but do not call their product a ceramic lining. Others do. Consequently, the type of ceramic compounds used in a brake supplier’s ceramic product line may vary significantly from those used by another brake supplier — along with the performance characteristics of their linings.
The actual amount of ceramic that is used in a friction material can also vary a great deal from one brake supplier to another. None of the manufacturers we interviewed for this article would revel the exact ceramic content of their linings. But several did made it very clear that the ceramic content can vary from a few percent to a significant percentage. What’s really important is how the ceramic that is used affects brake performance.
There’s also disagreement over what should and should not be called a ceramic. Ceramic materials include a variety of substances including potassium titanate fibers as well as clay fillers. Many brake manufacturers use clay filler in certain friction linings, but do not call their product a ceramic lining. Others do. Consequently, the type of ceramic compounds used in a brake supplier’s ceramic product line may vary significantly from those used by another brake supplier — along with the performance characteristics of their linings.
The actual amount of ceramic that is used in a friction material can also vary a great deal from one brake supplier to another. None of the manufacturers we interviewed for this article would revel the exact ceramic content of their linings. But several did made it very clear that the ceramic content can vary from a few percent to a significant percentage. What’s really important is how the ceramic that is used affects brake performance.
Why so much emphasis on ceramics? Because the aftermarket follows the original equipment market, and the domestic and Japanese OEMs have been using ceramic linings for years on many vehicles. One supplier estimated that some type of ceramic pad is now used on 50 to 60% of all new vehicles. If you count only those applications that use "real" ceramic pads (those where ceramics are a primary ingredient), the figure drops to about 40%, but is still a significant portion of the new vehicle fleet.
You can use Tirerack's user review to see what users said about noise, performance, and dust. Some are better than others for daily usages
Akebono
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brake...0&autoModClar=
Hawk
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brake...0&autoModClar=
Satisfied Pro
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brake...0&autoModClar=
Thread Starter
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: tx
wow... i think i've learned more about brakes than i ever wanted to know, and then some. 
i took my car to the dealership today to have the brakes and rotors checked out and they told me my rotors do not need replacing and it was the brake pads that were causing the squeak. when i told merlin's that, they said there was a "malfunction" with one of their machines that read the figures on the rotors wrong. they offered to order the brakes from lexus and fix it. to that, i saID 3 sets of brakes too late! they are paying for lexus to fix it!
thank you all for all the help!!
i took my car to the dealership today to have the brakes and rotors checked out and they told me my rotors do not need replacing and it was the brake pads that were causing the squeak. when i told merlin's that, they said there was a "malfunction" with one of their machines that read the figures on the rotors wrong. they offered to order the brakes from lexus and fix it. to that, i saID 3 sets of brakes too late! they are paying for lexus to fix it!
thank you all for all the help!!
CL Community Team
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,319
Likes: 203
From: Miami, Florida
I have heard excellent things about Akebonos, would like to give those a try.
Another good upgrade is to a quality brake fluid. Toyota OEM fluid just never cut it. I used Ford Heavy Duty fluid and at a bargain in price for its excellent boiling point.
Another good upgrade is to a quality brake fluid. Toyota OEM fluid just never cut it. I used Ford Heavy Duty fluid and at a bargain in price for its excellent boiling point.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 858
Likes: 2
From: California
I just had Akebono ProACT Ceramic pads installed on my RX as well resurfacing my rotors today, or well yesterday since it's almost 3 in the morning, they stop with absolutely no noise and very quick and effortless, although I've only put about 50 miles on them so far. Hoping for great performance and longevity to come!
-tc
-tc
Out of Warranty
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,925
Likes: 13
From: Houston, Republic of Texas
WAY TO GO!! 
Congrats on hanging in there and not letting them get away with shoddy service.
Many years ago I took my '67 Mustang to a brake shop after the dealer had it 32 times in nine weeks (in warranty) for what they diagnosed as a failed master cylinder. The shop found one of the dealers grease monkeys had "honed" the left rear wheel cylinder - evidently unaware of the procedure. This idiot worked a high speed drill and cylinder hone up and down vertically from the centerline of the bore, creating an "hourglass", rather than a cylinder. Since the leak (bypass) was internal, replacing the master cylinder fixed the problem for about a half-dozen stops before the pedal went to the floor. Several times the repair failed before I got out of the service drive. After a couple dozen master cylinders, a new wheel cylinder installed by the brake shop, the mysterious leak stopped and all was well.
Ford got a real nastygram from me over this one, and despite the fact the dealership was across the street from my apartment, I'd racked up several hundred dollars in car rental fees ("loaners" being unknown in those days). I backed up my complaints with copies of all the paperwork, named names, and laid out the whole sad tale. A month later Ford sent an investigative team from the region office, and the service manager lost his job. It seems I wasn't the only one to complain. They were using incompetent mechanics to drive their rental business. The state got involved after a local TV consumer reporter got involved and produced a series on the dealership. Lots of public humiliation here.
Ford wrote a nice letter of apology, refunded all of my expenses, and extended my warranty. I bought a motorcycle with the check - and commuted on it for the next several months. I love it when a plan comes together. (But I haven't owned a Ford since.)
Did I mention I worked for the TV station at the time? . . . . and worked with that reporter?
Congrats on hanging in there and not letting them get away with shoddy service. Many years ago I took my '67 Mustang to a brake shop after the dealer had it 32 times in nine weeks (in warranty) for what they diagnosed as a failed master cylinder. The shop found one of the dealers grease monkeys had "honed" the left rear wheel cylinder - evidently unaware of the procedure. This idiot worked a high speed drill and cylinder hone up and down vertically from the centerline of the bore, creating an "hourglass", rather than a cylinder. Since the leak (bypass) was internal, replacing the master cylinder fixed the problem for about a half-dozen stops before the pedal went to the floor. Several times the repair failed before I got out of the service drive. After a couple dozen master cylinders, a new wheel cylinder installed by the brake shop, the mysterious leak stopped and all was well.
Ford got a real nastygram from me over this one, and despite the fact the dealership was across the street from my apartment, I'd racked up several hundred dollars in car rental fees ("loaners" being unknown in those days). I backed up my complaints with copies of all the paperwork, named names, and laid out the whole sad tale. A month later Ford sent an investigative team from the region office, and the service manager lost his job. It seems I wasn't the only one to complain. They were using incompetent mechanics to drive their rental business. The state got involved after a local TV consumer reporter got involved and produced a series on the dealership. Lots of public humiliation here.
Ford wrote a nice letter of apology, refunded all of my expenses, and extended my warranty. I bought a motorcycle with the check - and commuted on it for the next several months. I love it when a plan comes together. (But I haven't owned a Ford since.)
Did I mention I worked for the TV station at the time? . . . . and worked with that reporter?
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,754
Likes: 6
From: Colorado
I actually still use OEM pads even for racing. Very good for timed bracket runs. Some of my friends use some aftermarket pads and I have seen a good many of them jerk badly and lose races. With the OEM pads, they are much smoother. Not that there are not good aftermarket pads out there, but I like the OEMs much better than previous experiences with Hawk Performance and EBC pads.
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,447
Likes: 9
From: CA
Excellent choice. Some people think that aftermarket parts and fluids are always better than OEM ones. This may be true for Ford & GM, but not Toyota/Lexus. Toyota/Lexus uses good quality parts consistently to build a reputation in quality and reliability. I insist on using genuine Toyota/Lexus parts and fluids in my RX300 since Day 1. The result is over 73,000 worry-free miles to date. (Just one issue - a burnt out D shift light which I do not want it fixed.)
http://www.prostreetonline.com/oem/brake_pad_set/
Akebono ceramic brake pads will put an end to your replacement brake pad nightmare - noise, vibration, and harshness (NVH). Developed from ceramic research similar to that which led to the ceramic heat shields on the space shuttle, Akebono brake pads combine the best performance characteristics of both semi-metallic and organic pads while reducing noise, lowering dust accumulation, and providing better fit with the rotor. Since ceramic pads are O.E. on many vehicles today, including the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry, you might be shocked by a increase in NVH if you replace your O.E. ceramic pad with a metallic alternative. Other manufacturers using Akebono as OE include Nissan, Mazda, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Lexus, Infiniti, and DaimlerChrysler. Akebono invented the technology for ceramic friction materials in the 1980's. Today, Akebono Ceramic Technology (ACT) with NVH control is specified by all of the world's leading vehicle manufacturers. There are more than 250 OEM ceramic disc pad numbers for vehicles from the past 10 years.
Customer list from Akebono USA
http://www.akebonobrakes.com/oem/index.html
Akebono's OEM customers include: General Motors, Ford Motor Company, DaimlerChrysler, Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi Motors, Mazda, Nissan, Subaru and Isuzu.
Last edited by TunedRX300; Aug 30, 2006 at 11:21 PM.
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