Sorry, But your Remote Start Won't Work
04-13-17, 09:29 PM
#31
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
I don't trust anyone to write secure code, so if I enable remote start, it means I enable it for anyone who is a talented black hat. Not my cup of tea.
04-14-17, 08:38 AM
#32
Lexus Champion
your car has a keyfob - hackable
your car has push button start - hackable
don't need to have remote start enabled to hack the car, the vehicle gives off radio signals for it's keyless systems already..
if someone wants to steal your car they are going to do it, be it by hacking, towing, or car jacking, they don't need your remote start enabled to do it.
04-14-17, 09:50 AM
#33
Lexus Champion
Really? Anything is hackable, your credit cards, your smart phone, smart TV, your home network, your car remote starter. You name it. I spent 40 years in IT industry as a system support engineer, when I retired I was sr. system support engineer. I am talking from real world experience. Didn't you know car thieves are using device to hack your remote? I bet your credit card has wireless chip for tap and go feature which is hackable.
04-14-17, 01:08 PM
#34
Lead Lap
Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it. If someone really wants your car they are going to get it. They'll just pull up and tow it off. It's common to see and nobody will question it. People will think it's a repo man... Hacking is a little more advanced for common thieves. I don't think the RC F is that big of a target. Unlike a Lambo or something. So while possible, it's not as likely.
I've heard of guys having their bikes stolen in this manner too. People will pull up with a flat bed and a couple of strong guys will pick it up and put it on the bed and drive off, all in less than 30 seconds. Sometimes they will just push the bike over on to the bed. They don't care about the damage. They plan to part them out anyway.
I've heard of guys having their bikes stolen in this manner too. People will pull up with a flat bed and a couple of strong guys will pick it up and put it on the bed and drive off, all in less than 30 seconds. Sometimes they will just push the bike over on to the bed. They don't care about the damage. They plan to part them out anyway.
04-14-17, 01:38 PM
#35
Lexus Champion
Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it. If someone really wants your car they are going to get it. They'll just pull up and tow it off. It's common to see and nobody will question it. People will think it's a repo man... Hacking is a little more advanced for common thieves. I don't think the RC F is that big of a target. Unlike a Lambo or something. So while possible, it's not as likely.
I've heard of guys having their bikes stolen in this manner too. People will pull up with a flat bed and a couple of strong guys will pick it up and put it on the bed and drive off, all in less than 30 seconds. Sometimes they will just push the bike over on to the bed. They don't care about the damage. They plan to part them out anyway.
I've heard of guys having their bikes stolen in this manner too. People will pull up with a flat bed and a couple of strong guys will pick it up and put it on the bed and drive off, all in less than 30 seconds. Sometimes they will just push the bike over on to the bed. They don't care about the damage. They plan to part them out anyway.
my own personal safety. I had to buy another one and kept new one in a fenced court yard.
04-14-17, 02:38 PM
#36
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Apparently none here read about the dealership who screwed up the Enform registration and mixed up the cars. The owner was raving mad about the car sitting in his garage remote started by Lexus when he didn't ask for it.
I couldn't care less if someone steals the car. I have insurance for that. I don't want to provide an avenue for attack.
I work in IT security. Over 35 years. I've seen a lot, hacked a lot, and pissed off a few people from time to time because their security sucked. Telling me anything in life is hackable doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. Not adding vulnerabilities to my car means it's just that much harder for some miscreant to **** me off.
And while the majority here seem to think all this technology is good, the EDR in your car can and will be used against you in a court of law, and you can be found guilty based on EDR data - no matter how wrong it might be.
I am not such a big fan of all this monitoring capability even when it adds convenience. You're trading a lot of privacy for comfort.
I couldn't care less if someone steals the car. I have insurance for that. I don't want to provide an avenue for attack.
I work in IT security. Over 35 years. I've seen a lot, hacked a lot, and pissed off a few people from time to time because their security sucked. Telling me anything in life is hackable doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. Not adding vulnerabilities to my car means it's just that much harder for some miscreant to **** me off.
And while the majority here seem to think all this technology is good, the EDR in your car can and will be used against you in a court of law, and you can be found guilty based on EDR data - no matter how wrong it might be.
Originally Posted by https://www.irmi.com/articles/expert-commentary/event-data-recorders-balancing-the-benefits-and-drawbacks
In Matos v. State, 899 So. 2d 403 (Fla. Dist. Ct. App. 2005), a Florida appellate court considered the issue of whether data from an EDR in an automobile was new or novel scientific evidence that has been generally accepted in the relevant scientific fields so as to be admissible. In General Motors' vehicles, like the one in Matos, the EDR is called a "Sensing & Diagnostic Module." Alternatively, the court referred to the EDR as a "black box."In Matos, the defendant appealed his conviction for two counts of manslaughter, arguing that the trial court improperly admitted the speed and airbag information from his vehicle's EDR (noting EDR recorded a speed of 114 miles per hour 4 seconds prior to the accident and a speed of 103 miles per hour 1 second prior to the accident, and showed that the defendant's airbag was working properly at the time of the accident). Specifically, the defendant challenged the admissibility of EDR data under the general acceptance standard of Frye v. United States, 293 F. 1013 (D.C. Cir. 1923). The court conducted a Frye hearing [to determine whether the data was admissible in a legal proceeding] and heard testimony from an accident reconstruction expert trained in EDR technology and an industrial engineer who had worked for General Motors and was responsible for its engine and computer control systems. Citing Bachman v. General Motors, 776 N.E.2d 262 (Ill. App. 2002), the court found that the process of recording and downloading data from an EDR was not a new or novel scientific method. The court held that the evidence was properly admissible under the Frye standard as a generally accepted scientific method when used as a tool of automotive accident reconstruction.
04-14-17, 03:53 PM
#37
Lead Lap
About stealing bike, when I was in 'Nam durint eh war, I used to live with a Vietnamese family commuting with bike. I always took different route for safety. One evening just about before sun down a neighbor shouted t me some guys are stealing my bike which was locked. I dashed to balcony to look out. Sure enough two guys were carrying my bike off. I dashed downstairs to outside to chase them. Then it was already getting pretty dark and I did want to go after them into their nneighborhood for
my own personal safety. I had to buy another one and kept new one in a fenced court yard.
my own personal safety. I had to buy another one and kept new one in a fenced court yard.
Apparently none here read about the dealership who screwed up the Enform registration and mixed up the cars. The owner was raving mad about the car sitting in his garage remote started by Lexus when he didn't ask for it.
I couldn't care less if someone steals the car. I have insurance for that. I don't want to provide an avenue for attack.
I work in IT security. Over 35 years. I've seen a lot, hacked a lot, and pissed off a few people from time to time because their security sucked. Telling me anything in life is hackable doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. Not adding vulnerabilities to my car means it's just that much harder for some miscreant to **** me off.
And while the majority here seem to think all this technology is good, the EDR in your car can and will be used against you in a court of law, and you can be found guilty based on EDR data - no matter how wrong it might be.
I am not such a big fan of all this monitoring capability even when it adds convenience. You're trading a lot of privacy for comfort.
I couldn't care less if someone steals the car. I have insurance for that. I don't want to provide an avenue for attack.
I work in IT security. Over 35 years. I've seen a lot, hacked a lot, and pissed off a few people from time to time because their security sucked. Telling me anything in life is hackable doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. Not adding vulnerabilities to my car means it's just that much harder for some miscreant to **** me off.
And while the majority here seem to think all this technology is good, the EDR in your car can and will be used against you in a court of law, and you can be found guilty based on EDR data - no matter how wrong it might be.
I am not such a big fan of all this monitoring capability even when it adds convenience. You're trading a lot of privacy for comfort.
With that said, I fail to see how enabling Enform or not is going to make a hill of beans difference in the security of our cars. If someone hacks it and performs a remote start, that is the extent of what they can do. It doesn't help them to drive off with the car as it will die as soon as the car is shifted out of park. If they can go as far as hacking the code which shuts off the car, they might as well just steal the keycodes and clone them. There's no extended benefit from trying to steal the car through the Enform system over more conventional methods. Unlocking the doors can be done faster through conventional methods than by using the Enform system as well.
I will also know about any unauthorized Enform access 3 minutes after it happens due to the notifications. 30 seconds later I'll be on the phone with Lexus and I'll likely be having my service disabled if someone has hacked into it. If they happen to be driving off with my car then Lexus now has the ability to track the location of the car in real time (read their website). They don't provide that tracking ability through our app, but they have that ability and will use it once an official police report is filed.
As for the black box deal, that's going to be there no matter what you do. It's installed in the car at the factory and is active when you take delivery of it.
04-14-17, 08:31 PM
#39
Tech Info Resource
iTrader: (2)
Wow, sorry to hear that. That's crazy.
I've been into computers all of my life. I started with a TRS-80 and have written many pieces of code in my time (some were not entirely legal). But I doubt that I have the knowledge of IT security that you do. My passion for computer science was a hobby, not a career.
With that said, I fail to see how enabling Enform or not is going to make a hill of beans difference in the security of our cars. If someone hacks it and performs a remote start, that is the extent of what they can do. It doesn't help them to drive off with the car as it will die as soon as the car is shifted out of park. If they can go as far as hacking the code which shuts off the car, they might as well just steal the keycodes and clone them. There's no extended benefit from trying to steal the car through the Enform system over more conventional methods. Unlocking the doors can be done faster through conventional methods than by using the Enform system as well.
I will also know about any unauthorized Enform access 3 minutes after it happens due to the notifications. 30 seconds later I'll be on the phone with Lexus and I'll likely be having my service disabled if someone has hacked into it. If they happen to be driving off with my car then Lexus now has the ability to track the location of the car in real time (read their website). They don't provide that tracking ability through our app, but they have that ability and will use it once an official police report is filed.
As for the black box deal, that's going to be there no matter what you do. It's installed in the car at the factory and is active when you take delivery of it.
I've been into computers all of my life. I started with a TRS-80 and have written many pieces of code in my time (some were not entirely legal). But I doubt that I have the knowledge of IT security that you do. My passion for computer science was a hobby, not a career.
With that said, I fail to see how enabling Enform or not is going to make a hill of beans difference in the security of our cars. If someone hacks it and performs a remote start, that is the extent of what they can do. It doesn't help them to drive off with the car as it will die as soon as the car is shifted out of park. If they can go as far as hacking the code which shuts off the car, they might as well just steal the keycodes and clone them. There's no extended benefit from trying to steal the car through the Enform system over more conventional methods. Unlocking the doors can be done faster through conventional methods than by using the Enform system as well.
I will also know about any unauthorized Enform access 3 minutes after it happens due to the notifications. 30 seconds later I'll be on the phone with Lexus and I'll likely be having my service disabled if someone has hacked into it. If they happen to be driving off with my car then Lexus now has the ability to track the location of the car in real time (read their website). They don't provide that tracking ability through our app, but they have that ability and will use it once an official police report is filed.
As for the black box deal, that's going to be there no matter what you do. It's installed in the car at the factory and is active when you take delivery of it.
The EDR can be disabled. Nothing is sacred, all systems can be hacked with physical access.
FWIW, my first computer was a PDP 8/e with 4k of ferrite core memory running BASIC in 1973 when integrated circuits were new and a handheld calculator was a technological marvel. I've been wondering "what if" for a very long time, and I don't let artificial boundaries deter me.
Last edited by lobuxracer; 04-14-17 at 08:34 PM.
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nttkr (04-26-17)
04-14-17, 08:39 PM
#40
Lexus Champion
04-15-17, 01:38 PM
#41
Lexus Champion
You lack a hacker's imagination. You're focused on theft. I am not focused on theft, I am focused on what else can I do once I gain access? If you believe "all they can do" is remote start, you're sadly mistaken, and again, stuck inside a box I refuse to acknowledge which is what makes me a hacker. If I close the avenue by deliberately disabling external access, I prevent the less talented from disrupting my day. FWIW, Lexus can disrupt your day simply by accessing your car without your knowledge - hey, look, Dave is at a track this weekend, I guess he isn't concerned about his warranty any more. Maybe you missed the car test where the magazine guys got a call from OnStar asking if everything was OK because they noticed unusual driving patterns.
The EDR can be disabled. Nothing is sacred, all systems can be hacked with physical access.
FWIW, my first computer was a PDP 8/e with 4k of ferrite core memory running BASIC in 1973 when integrated circuits were new and a handheld calculator was a technological marvel. I've been wondering "what if" for a very long time, and I don't let artificial boundaries deter me.
The EDR can be disabled. Nothing is sacred, all systems can be hacked with physical access.
FWIW, my first computer was a PDP 8/e with 4k of ferrite core memory running BASIC in 1973 when integrated circuits were new and a handheld calculator was a technological marvel. I've been wondering "what if" for a very long time, and I don't let artificial boundaries deter me.
OnStar called the guy because he crashed and the impact triggered the safety response system, not because of "unusual driving patterns". There is no way on this earth I would believe that, I have owned 6 cars with active OnStar subscription and tracked or did extreme off-roading with all of them, and not once was I ever contacted because of "unusual driving patterns", unless you can show me actual founded proof, that statement is nothing more than conjecture and conspiracy mongering.
As a forum moderator I would think you would have a little more sense than to be spreading unfounded conspiracies, no one is out to disrupt your day by screwing with your cars electronic systems. if someone is messing with the programming of your car it is because they likely intend on stealing it.
and your comment earlier about the dealership that screwed up an enform registration was nothing more than an error, and one that doesn't occur very often, yeah it was scary for the owner, but the bottom line is that it was an ERROR, not any kind of intentional hacking.
if you chose not to use remote start because of your tin foil hat conspiracy theories that's your choice, don't spread propaganda and fear on the forum because of your belief's.
04-15-17, 02:03 PM
#43
Lead Lap
You lack a hacker's imagination. You're focused on theft. I am not focused on theft, I am focused on what else can I do once I gain access? If you believe "all they can do" is remote start, you're sadly mistaken, and again, stuck inside a box I refuse to acknowledge which is what makes me a hacker. If I close the avenue by deliberately disabling external access, I prevent the less talented from disrupting my day. FWIW, Lexus can disrupt your day simply by accessing your car without your knowledge - hey, look, Dave is at a track this weekend, I guess he isn't concerned about his warranty any more. Maybe you missed the car test where the magazine guys got a call from OnStar asking if everything was OK because they noticed unusual driving patterns.
The EDR can be disabled. Nothing is sacred, all systems can be hacked with physical access.
FWIW, my first computer was a PDP 8/e with 4k of ferrite core memory running BASIC in 1973 when integrated circuits were new and a handheld calculator was a technological marvel. I've been wondering "what if" for a very long time, and I don't let artificial boundaries deter me.
The EDR can be disabled. Nothing is sacred, all systems can be hacked with physical access.
FWIW, my first computer was a PDP 8/e with 4k of ferrite core memory running BASIC in 1973 when integrated circuits were new and a handheld calculator was a technological marvel. I've been wondering "what if" for a very long time, and I don't let artificial boundaries deter me.
But since I'm on the theft thing, here's someone who's car was stolen that likely would not have been stolen if they had their Enform active:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/rc-1st-gen-2015-present/846536-white-rc-350-f-sport-stolen-nnj.html
They would have gotten a notification on their phone 3 minutes after they left the car unlocked.
As for hacking... it doesn't matter if you have an active Enform subscription or not. Your system uses cellular service regardless (just look at the live traffic and weather everyone gets for free). It can therefore be accessed remotely and hacked into. How do you think Lexus accesses it? If they can access it someone else can too. Where's your imagination?
It's not a lack of imagination, it's about not worrying about every little thing in life. If someone decides to hack into my car... why do I care? That's why I have insurance and a warranty. What can I do to stop someone from hacking my car remotely? Nothing without completely turning off all wireless access to the car. Then if they still really want to hack it they can still plug into it directly. The chances are so remote that I don't even care... Someone would have to really hate me or be extremely bored to pick my car and to hack into it.
I never claimed to be a hacker anyway. I only reported that I've written some code that wasn't entirely legal.
Edit: All of this is me talking about the RC F. I have no idea what the IS F has or does not have. I forgot that you own a IS F.
Last edited by Davew77; 04-15-17 at 03:00 PM.
04-15-17, 05:41 PM
#44
Lexus Champion
Compustar has something called Drone. Enform is not the only one. My car has road side assistance, am a member of AMA. Smartphone almost every one has.
Also being a ham I carry radios in my car when I am on long road trip. In my life time so far I almost got stranded once. My tow truck drive shaft steady bearing was going.
I could limp back to closest town to have the bearing replaced. I never drive any old vehicle either, less chance of getting a trouble on the road.
Also being a ham I carry radios in my car when I am on long road trip. In my life time so far I almost got stranded once. My tow truck drive shaft steady bearing was going.
I could limp back to closest town to have the bearing replaced. I never drive any old vehicle either, less chance of getting a trouble on the road.
04-16-17, 06:36 AM
#45
I don't lack the imagination, I just don't care about "what if."
But since I'm on the theft thing, here's someone who's car was stolen that likely would not have been stolen if they had their Enform active:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/rc-1st-gen-2015-present/846536-white-rc-350-f-sport-stolen-nnj.html
They would have gotten a notification on their phone 3 minutes after they left the car unlocked.
As for hacking... it doesn't matter if you have an active Enform subscription or not. Your system uses cellular service regardless (just look at the live traffic and weather everyone gets for free). It can therefore be accessed remotely and hacked into. How do you think Lexus accesses it? If they can access it someone else can too. Where's your imagination?
It's not a lack of imagination, it's about not worrying about every little thing in life. If someone decides to hack into my car... why do I care? That's why I have insurance and a warranty. What can I do to stop someone from hacking my car remotely? Nothing without completely turning off all wireless access to the car. Then if they still really want to hack it they can still plug into it directly. The chances are so remote that I don't even care... Someone would have to really hate me or be extremely bored to pick my car and to hack into it.
I never claimed to be a hacker anyway. I only reported that I've written some code that wasn't entirely legal.
Edit: All of this is me talking about the RC F. I have no idea what the IS F has or does not have. I forgot that you own a IS F.
But since I'm on the theft thing, here's someone who's car was stolen that likely would not have been stolen if they had their Enform active:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/rc-1st-gen-2015-present/846536-white-rc-350-f-sport-stolen-nnj.html
They would have gotten a notification on their phone 3 minutes after they left the car unlocked.
As for hacking... it doesn't matter if you have an active Enform subscription or not. Your system uses cellular service regardless (just look at the live traffic and weather everyone gets for free). It can therefore be accessed remotely and hacked into. How do you think Lexus accesses it? If they can access it someone else can too. Where's your imagination?
It's not a lack of imagination, it's about not worrying about every little thing in life. If someone decides to hack into my car... why do I care? That's why I have insurance and a warranty. What can I do to stop someone from hacking my car remotely? Nothing without completely turning off all wireless access to the car. Then if they still really want to hack it they can still plug into it directly. The chances are so remote that I don't even care... Someone would have to really hate me or be extremely bored to pick my car and to hack into it.
I never claimed to be a hacker anyway. I only reported that I've written some code that wasn't entirely legal.
Edit: All of this is me talking about the RC F. I have no idea what the IS F has or does not have. I forgot that you own a IS F.
But as others have said, if someone wants the car, they'll take it. App has very little to do with it. Maybe they can hack your app and get personal information, blah blah blah, but why worry about it?!?! If it's gunna happen, it's gunna happen.
Also, tens of thousands of bikes are stolen a year in the USA (4 wheelers, dirt bikes and motorcycles). Very big business and I hear about it around my smallish town at my shop on a weekly basis. Thieves are very creative and sneaky....The few that aren't getting weeded out quickly (dead or in jail).
But do what you can to prevent theft/hacking, but going to the extreme worrying about it is useless and will turn you grey in the head quickly.
V.