kellens

Yep, I've driven the LS500, in air suspension, F sport and regular. Wanted to buy one. It's too many compromises for me. The interior quality services will be large , I agree there. But the ES on standard tire set, might be smoother running than the LS500. The RX350 I drove back to back with the LS500 took out many more of the jolts than the run-flat equipped and air suspension LS500.

I agree as well with you, wished the LS500 was targeted to same isolation as the LS460, especially the LS460 on air. The upgrades still could have been there in handling. Technology. Spaciousness. But they're not. It's beautiful, just a different direction all together. The ES minus the interior appointments, might just be closer than you think. Obviously, you, nor I have driven the new ES yet.

SW17LS

Couldn't remember, but I remember talking to you about you driving it now.

The ES may be softer riding, but its never going to feel as solid, refined or as smooth overall as the LS.

If you drive a 6ES and a 4LS around you may feel that over some expansion joints and such the ES is softer sprung already than the 4LS, but all you have to do is drive it over 45 MPH and what makes the LS worth so much more than the ES is apparent. The fundamentals are just not there in the ES, the suspension is nowhere near as sophisticated, the car isn't as well deadened and damped, its just not going to be the same thing.

kellens

You're speaking of a vehicle that isn't out yet. The 2019 ES isn't even in hands of the media. The LS500 is a rough riding sedan compared to your older LS460. Take the nicer interior touches out, and the fundamentals might be a better riding vehicle. Yet to be determined. The LS is not a popular vehicle for a reason. I had hoped the LS500 would be closer to what you and I seem to like in general in a sedan from your earlier post.

SW17LS

kellens

That one wouldn't even consider a vehicle that isn't out, and is 12 years out after the current generation of vehicle they're doing shows a lot of owner bias, but if you're happy, no need to convince us of it! Considering leases and sales, the LS is the lagger in the pack. And IMO, perhaps as it's the only on run flats, the LS is the roughest riding of the Genesis G90 (arguably it's closest competition), and Series 7, and the Mercedes S class (both of which are slightly a higher tier, but pricier, and with questionable reliability if on a purchase without extended warranty add on, or a lease). Agree with your point that the segment in general has been down. The SUV craze has taken over. Coworker with an LS going to the LX this time around on similar opinions as my own about the LS' shortcomings.

I'd consider, ego aside to need to be in flagship and need for better interior appointments, seeing what the ES is about before discounting it. It's likely to be a smoother riding vehicle than the current LS500, but, we do not know yet. It's not out.

SW17LS

Lots of new cars that would come out that I would never consider because they aren't the sort of car I like. All new Altima coming out, Ive never seen a picture but I can tell you I would never consider it. I haven't seen or driven the Lexus UX, but I would never consider buying one. I have never driven a 2 Series BMW, but I would never consider buying one. It just isn't the sort of car that interests me right now, and neither is the ES. If the ES was the most incredible car in the world, its still a FWD transverse Avalon/Camry derived sedan with a NA V6 engine, and thats not a type of car I would have any interest in buying. The Volvo S90 is a really nice car, I would never consider buying one. Its not "owner bias", its "owner preferences". I don't need to wait to drive it, because I know what it is...and I've seen pictures that don't interest me in any way shape or form.

There are two sorts of vehicles at this stage in my life I would consider buying:

1. A large long wheelbase flagship luxury sedan with a RWD setup and a longitudinal layout, preferably with a V8.
2. A large luxury flagship level SUV

Is the new ES going to be either of those things? No, so absolutely unequivocally I am not interested in purchasing one. Clear enough?

LOL, compared to what? Its outselling everybody but the S Class. So if the LS is the lagger in the pack what does that mean for everybody else?!?

Agreed. but that difference is more subtle than you project it to be, and its also by a wide margin the best handling car in the segment and like it or not, that does matter to certain people.

Owning an LS and having driven a couple LXs this makes no sense lol. The LX drives nothing like the LS, its heavy, cumbersome and tiring to drive. He'd be much better off in something like a Range Rover or Audi Q7.

Its not about ego or need, I WANT the space, refinement, and advanced build and components of a flagship sedan, I WANT the better interior appointments. I work my butt off for a living and I'm going to buy what I want, not what you think I "need". I had two ES's, they were great for what they were but I have grown beyond that in my tastes and wants as a buyer.

Even though the 5LS is not 100% my cup of tea, even if the 7ES rode softer I would still not consider the ES compared to the LS. I would just buy a different flagship level vehicle that better suits my needs. I'd rather just keep the older LS I have than buy a new ES.

Bob04

It should be outselling everything being an all-new car just release a couple of months ago. Last year, it was 5th or 6th in the class. I think the G90 actually outsold the LS460 in 2017.

After this initial push, I suspect it will fall back in the pack. Going to be interesting to see.

SW17LS

last year many dealers didn't even stock them, the LS was 10 years old at that point.

The LS is commonly in second place behind the S Class. They're not going to outsell the S Class nor was it their goal to.

Bob04

Most consider the 7-series the #2 contender in the class. When was the last time the LS was second in sales for the year? A couple of months of good sales right after a redesign doesn't redefine the pecking order in the market.

And if second place was their goal, that explains a lot. Should probably look for new management if that is true. That certainly isn't the attitude that made the LS great to begin with.

SW17LS

Thats always been the case. When we were LS buyers and owners in the late 90s and early 2000s the 7 Series and S Class were clearly upgrades from the LS400 and LS430 then too.

When was the last year the LS was second in sales for the year? 2013.

LOL, its not.a zero sum game. One doesn't have to be #1 to be successful. Their sales target is 12,000 units per year, thats well documented. All you have to do is look at the US Sales figures of the S Class and 7 Series to know where that slots the LS...#2. Lexus has said repeatedly their goal is to build "emotional" vehicles even if that costs them some sales, all you have to do is look at the car they designed and you see why its never going to beat the S Class, its not designed to. Its a niche vehicle, as compared to the older LS versions which were bland "everyman" type vehicles. Which is better? If you're in the niche where the LS500 is designed to fit its going to be the LS.

Andrew2

Took a $100K plus optioned LS on a 30 mile test drive this morning, had cash in hand to buy one, was terrible. Love the looks which drew me in, but felt tight. Rode rough even with air suspension, we stopped after a mile to check tires, as I was sure they were at least to 50psi. Not so. Not that engaging to handle/drive for such as tight feeling vehicle. Interior black, maybe had some bearing, nonetheless, drove a 2018 ES and it was a superior riding and roomy vehicle all around, MINUS the interior fit and finish, which is obviously where all that money went to. Either way, I know the 2019 ES coming, should not be hard for it to be a winner. Can see why ES sell well and the LS is a lagger. They let the LS460 slip into the 'forgotten file's' for too long before updating it, and missed an opportunity with the redesign of the LS500 in my humble opinion, badly. Dealer said most of those driving away with them were 'die hard LS fans', he agreed to the vehicle not meeting what they had hoped it would be.

dsc07

Look, if you want to bash the LS, bash away. But don't try and convinces us that an ES is a superior ride compared to the LS. Fake News.

FatherTo1

Great graphic! The LS still appears to have more legroom to me. Yes, there is less volume in the LS but that is due to the lower roofline. What really sticks out to me is how low the LS driver's seat appears to be, especially in relation to the rear seat height!

EDIT: Actually, I take that back, the LS still appears to have both more legroom and interior volume despite the low roof line. I have not sat in either new LS or ES yet though.

Andrew2

Not bashing. Current generation ES is a smoother ride the LS. No doubt. "Better" is in the eye of the beholder. You'll feel the bumps more in the LS, and hear them. And 2019 ES will be a generation ahead of the LS in infotainment/Carplay/Alexa. They went way too sporty and shrunk the LS while putting in a laggy V6. Alex on Autos did comparison on same road, and 2016 ES also quieter than the 2018 LS. The interior touches and fit of the LS is way better, will give it that.

dsc07

As someone who's driven several thousand miles in both cars, I can say unequivocally that except for the LS (interior) shrinkage (vs. the 460) and the interior appointments on the LS, you're dead wrong on all points. The V6 is not "laggy" by any means. Replace the run flats and you'll discover the LS is far smoother than the ES. And your comment that the 2016 ES is quieter than the 2018 LS is laughable.