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As someone who's driven several thousand miles in both cars, I can say unequivocally that except for the LS (interior) shrinkage (vs. the 460) and the interior appointments on the LS, you're dead wrong on all points. The V6 is not "laggy" by any means. Replace the run flats and you'll discover the LS is far smoother than the ES. And your comment that the 2016 ES is quieter than the 2018 LS is laughable.
No offense taken or meant, you nor I had any involvement with the designs of these cars, but even if you've driven a trillion miles in them in your time, the DB meter doesn't lie. It's been tested and the 2016 ES is quieter than the 2018 LS on the same road, same db testing gear, at least in the tires it comes with. Blame the ride on run flats as you mention, and you may be right that it MIGHT be better than the ES if you changed them out, but then no spare or no trunk? Silly compromises. Lexus made LS500 to be 'sportier and more engagement'. My perception of the Turbo V6 in the LS500 a downgrade LS460 and has turbo lag, read some reviews bud, I'm not alone in this. The ES doesn't have that issue, no turbo, lighter vehicle doesn't need it. Interior appointments are spot on with the LS500, a different league than the ES but it is laughably a less soft ride as it comes, not as quiet, and more confining feeling/lower roof by design than a car much less it's price. Truth.
I haven’t put a ton of miles on LS500s but the cars I’ve driven didn’t have any turbo lag. Complaining about turbo lag in the LS500 doesn’t make any sense when the LS460 has a pretty lazy/laggy throttle response by design that is laggier than any turbo lag I’ve ever experienced, and the current gen ES350 has the same lazy throttle response.
To say the NA V6 is better is ridiculous, it’s 110 hp less, the car does 0-60 nearly 2 seconds slower. The ES is by nobody credibles definition a fast car.
Remember too the LS500 Alex had was an FSport, with no air suspension tuned for firmer, louder driving. I would direct you to his earlier non F Sport, with air suspension review where he said the car was easily as nice riding and as quiet as an S Class. So I would ask him, which is it?
I do not understand why people feel that an LS500 with the air suspension rides poorly. It’s a little firmer
firmer than my LS460L with air suspension, but it’s still a VERY nice riding car, and a better riding car than the ES which I drive often as a loaner.
It comes down to what you want out of a car. If all you want is a soft riding quiet car you should just buy a Chevy Impala.
I haven’t put a ton of miles on LS500s but the cars I’ve driven didn’t have any turbo lag. Complaining about turbo lag in the LS500 doesn’t make any sense when the LS460 has a pretty lazy/laggy throttle response by design that is laggier than any turbo lag I’ve ever experienced, and the current gen ES350 has the same lazy throttle response.
To say the NA V6 is better is ridiculous, it’s 110 hp less, the car does 0-60 nearly 2 seconds slower. The ES is by nobody credibles definition a fast car.
Remember too the LS500 Alex had was an FSport, with no air suspension tuned for firmer, louder driving. I would direct you to his earlier non F Sport, with air suspension review where he said the car was easily as nice riding and as quiet as an S Class. So I would ask him, which is it?
I do not understand why people feel that an LS500 with the air suspension rides poorly. It’s a little firmer
firmer than my LS460L with air suspension, but it’s still a VERY nice riding car, and a better riding car than the ES which I drive often as a loaner.
It comes down to what you want out of a car. If all you want is a soft riding quiet car you should just buy a Chevy Impala.
The LS500 I drive was the 100K one with air suspension. I honestly didn't know it had run flats, but checked tire pressure when felt small ruts in road I never noticed before. Might explain the comparative poor ride to the ES. I drove them back to back. The ES was on Michelin tires. On roads I was on, the ES smoother, hands down than the LS500. Seemed quieter, and that's when saw it was tested as slightly so too by online tester with pricy gear, not just an iPhone app.
Lexus made it more sporty on purpose. It's not a mistake. My grandfather has an LS460 I get to drive now and again, NO lag that I feel. VROOOOM! (Huge smile, and still silky smooth ride) The V6 turbo, to me, a compromise. Other reviewers note the lag. The ES normally aspirated V6 a much better match for that car and overall buttery smooth. Neither of these cars are roadsters, but yes, would say the LS500 on sportier side and undoubtably faster to get to 60. Interior finish is it's forte. I'd like my living room to look like it. And yes, the Impala I had as a rental was surprising, nice ride. GM can't get interiors to fit together to save their life though. Please also note when I say was in ES, it was not the 2019, that's still not out yet, remains to be seen if they 'sported it out' too.
The LS500 I drive was the 100K one with air suspension. I honestly didn't know it had run flats, but checked tire pressure when felt small ruts in road I never noticed before. Might explain the comparative poor ride to the ES. I drove them back to back. The ES was on Michelin tires. On roads I was on, the ES smoother, hands down than the LS500. Seemed quieter, and that's when saw it was tested as slightly so too by online tester with pricy gear, not just an iPhone app.
Lexus made it more sporty on purpose. It's not a mistake. My grandfather has an LS460 I get to drive now and again, NO lag that I feel. VROOOOM! (Huge smile, and still silky smooth ride) The V6 turbo, to me, a compromise. Other reviewers note the lag. The ES normally aspirated V6 a much better match for that car and overall buttery smooth. Neither of these cars are roadsters, but yes, would say the LS500 on sportier side and undoubtably faster to get to 60. Interior finish is it's forte. I'd like my living room to look like it. And yes, the Impala I had as a rental was surprising, nice ride. GM can't get interiors to fit together to save their life though. Please also note when I say was in ES, it was not the 2019, that's still not out yet, remains to be seen if they 'sported it out' too.
Look, I'm not a huge fan of the choices they made with the LS500 either, but you have to be fair. I'm glad your grandfather has an LS460 you've driven, but *I* have an LS460 I drive every day, in fact I've had two, and an LS430 and an LS400. Like I said, the ride and drive to me is totally fine in the 500, where my issue with it lies is in interior space, and the idea that I want a V8. The ride is NOT dramatically different than the ride in my LS460L with air suspension, it just isn't. Firmer yes, dramatically different no.
The runflats will absolutely have an impact, and I noticed too at lower speeds you feel small road imperfections more, but once you're at speed the LS500 rides surprisingly well, and certainly handling is a big improvement over the 460. The LS460 absolutely has a lazy throttle, again I've had two. Roll out and slam the throttle to pull out into traffic, it takes it a good 1.5-2 seconds to shift down and give you that power. Its just not designed to be driven that way, its not geared that way.
Bottom line is, even if the ES were "softer riding" I would never choose an ES over an LS, even the LS500. If the additional benefits of the LS, the quality, the refinement, the solidity, so on and so forth are of no value to you, then get the ES and save your money. To say however that the ES is BETTER than the LS is just ridiculous though.
Most consider the 7-series the #2 contender in the class. When was the last time the LS was second in sales for the year? A couple of months of good sales right after a redesign doesn't redefine the pecking order in the market.
And if second place was their goal, that explains a lot. Should probably look for new management if that is true. That certainly isn't the attitude that made the LS great to begin with.
I really wonder if people are uninformed or just ignoring the facts on purpose to give way to their confirmation bias.
The LS was planned to be a competitor more to Panamera than the S Class, CL, being a supposed Lexus enthusiast community, should know this or at least accept it after being informed. That explains the new driving experience, the low roofline and overall decreased rear leg and head space.
Those who hate rather just assume the above mentioned characteristics were "mistakes" over being planned.
No offense taken or meant, you nor I had any involvement with the designs of these cars, but even if you've driven a trillion miles in them in your time, the DB meter doesn't lie. It's been tested and the 2016 ES is quieter than the 2018 LS on the same road, same db testing gear, at least in the tires it comes with. Blame the ride on run flats as you mention, and you may be right that it MIGHT be better than the ES if you changed them out, but then no spare or no trunk? Silly compromises. Lexus made LS500 to be 'sportier and more engagement'. My perception of the Turbo V6 in the LS500 a downgrade LS460 and has turbo lag, read some reviews bud, I'm not alone in this. The ES doesn't have that issue, no turbo, lighter vehicle doesn't need it. Interior appointments are spot on with the LS500, a different league than the ES but it is laughably a less soft ride as it comes, not as quiet, and more confining feeling/lower roof by design than a car much less it's price. Truth.
Yea, chances are extremely low that there are real buyers cross shopping the ES and LS. Chances are much higher that those who are only in the market for the ES and have no budget for the LS would make many justifications that the ES is superior to a car that doubles it in price.
I can only speak for me but I have the money to buy (not least or buy on payments) an LS but an considering both the ES and LS. While agree the cars are nowhere near equal, there are things that I don't like on the LS and wonder if it will be worth the difference once the 19 ES comes out.
For example I have driven 2 different ls 500 and with both set to sport mode, have noticed a definite lag when flooring from a complete stop. Funny thing when I did it with the salesman in the car, he stated, you have to floor it right away. When I told him I did he was silent.
Also having less headroom than my LS 430 and also my wife's 2013 GS is an issue for me. I see when Ford and probably GM will stop making sedans due to people buying SUV's. Well what do they expect when they make sedans smaller? Obviously people are not concerned about gas mileage when they buy and SUV for the room, why now make the sedans roomy?
Other small turnoffs but none the less issues, no pass thru, some commands layered in the screen commands, no apple play, Requiring air suspension to get the $3,000 safety + system. Really,on a $80-$100K car that I think other manufactures have on much cheaper cars?
So for me it's not so much that I don't want an LS but is it worth the difference to compromise?
Having gone from the LS a to the ES in my life, you will always miss the LS, and it will bug you more and more over time the little ways where the cost difference shows with the ES. Not something I would do again.
Look at a G90.
People aren’t buying SUVs because they’re making sedans smaller, they’re making sedans smaller because people are buying SUVs. Carmakers are searching for a selling proposition for the modern sedan, buyers who prioritize space are buying SUVs, so they need to find a hook for why somebody should buy a sedan. Styling,dynamics, etc are those hooks and they’re taking priority over space.
IMO, the current ES is a step down from any LS made this century. I've had them for loaners, and it's not the same. It will be interesting to see the next ES.
And I agree with the G90 comment. It's closer to what the traditional LS is looking for in a car than the 500. Now that I think about it, so is the S Class, 7 Series, and A8, Seems like Lexus went from one end of the spectrum to the opposite end in one redesign.
Going to be interesting to see where sales end up as the newness wears off.
IMO, the current ES is a step down from any LS made this century. I've had them for loaners, and it's not the same. It will be interesting to see the next ES.
Next ES will be the same way, its the same basic sort of car built to the same sort of price. Its a fine car for $45,000, its not reasonable to expect an ES to feel like an LS.
Seems like Lexus went from one end of the spectrum to the opposite end in one redesign.
It's very interesting to read about many of the posts that try to compare the ride of ES cars to that of the LS, or for that matter, any other aspects of the ES to those of the LS. I've driven the LS cars from 2000, first the LS 400 and then the LS 460 in 2007 and now the latest LS 500. The new one is SO MUCH better than the previous LS cars I had! Hands down. The ES doesn't even come into the picture. While you guys keep trying the compare the ES and LS, I will enjoy my new LS 500 for many years to come.
05-31-18, 06:08 AM
