LS 460 2009 Problems starting
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Driver School Candidate
Joined: Jun 2018
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From: Texas
LS 460 2009 Problems starting
To start off, I did a couple of deep searches about the issue im having on this forum and I am still confused.
My issue is I was having a starting issue where the car was slow to start. It still started every time but the car would take about 3 slow cranks before it started up instead of the normal smooth start. ran fine after. Went to get the battery tested at an auto store, battery came back fine but partially discharged, volts were lower when started so we agreed it was an alternator issue.
An important note when the auto meter was on the car it started up fine.
Took it to my mechanic and the car wont start after they put in a new alternator and battery.
He wants to replace the starter but im convinced we must be missing something because it just worked fine.
Thanks in advance for any advice
My issue is I was having a starting issue where the car was slow to start. It still started every time but the car would take about 3 slow cranks before it started up instead of the normal smooth start. ran fine after. Went to get the battery tested at an auto store, battery came back fine but partially discharged, volts were lower when started so we agreed it was an alternator issue.
An important note when the auto meter was on the car it started up fine.
Took it to my mechanic and the car wont start after they put in a new alternator and battery.
He wants to replace the starter but im convinced we must be missing something because it just worked fine.
Thanks in advance for any advice
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Joined: Apr 2008
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From: TX
Well, there may be something wrong with what you said: "battery came back fine but partially discharged"
The condition of a battery, good or bad, can not be determined until it is fully charged. By definition, a battery is fully charged when additional charging will not raise the State-Of-Charge.
The gold standard for testing a battery is to charge it until the charging current falls to zero or the charging current will not decrease with additional charging and then measuring the specific gravity of each cell with a hydrometer. Hydrometers for measuring auto batteries are inexpensive and available at most auto parts stores.
The symptoms you described are characteristic of a battery that has a defective cell.
If you don't want to do the testing yourself, then take it to a battery dealer.
The condition of a battery, good or bad, can not be determined until it is fully charged. By definition, a battery is fully charged when additional charging will not raise the State-Of-Charge.
The gold standard for testing a battery is to charge it until the charging current falls to zero or the charging current will not decrease with additional charging and then measuring the specific gravity of each cell with a hydrometer. Hydrometers for measuring auto batteries are inexpensive and available at most auto parts stores.
The symptoms you described are characteristic of a battery that has a defective cell.
If you don't want to do the testing yourself, then take it to a battery dealer.
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Joined: Sep 2017
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From: California
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I agree with jmcraney. It is most likely a weak battery that caused the problem. I'd begin with verifying if the battery is good first. If you have a multimeter, you may read voltage of the battery. Without the engine running, your battery voltage needs to be above 12.3 to be considered as in good condition (12.3V suggests 75% of charge and a fully charged battery should be 12.6V or above). If you get a reading of 11.8V or lower, it means your battery is less than 25% of the charge. If you have Techstream, use Techstream to clear this code (in Engine Trouble Code section).
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I agree with jmcraney. It is most likely a weak battery that caused the problem. I'd begin with verifying if the battery is good first. If you have a multimeter, you may read voltage of the battery. Without the engine running, your battery voltage needs to be above 12.3 to be considered as in good condition (12.3V suggests 75% of charge and a fully charged battery should be 12.6V or above). If you get a reading of 11.8V or lower, it means your battery is less than 25% of the charge. If you have Techstream, use Techstream to clear this code (in Engine Trouble Code section).
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Last edited by yyymmm31; Dec 28, 2020 at 03:04 PM. Reason: deleted a bad suggestion.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2016
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From: Ca
New battery needs testing. Trust no one. Add a Charger with high start amp outputs to your battery.
if the car turns over quick it’s the “new” battery.
i went to Bosch premium AGM batteries on three of my cars
if the car turns over quick it’s the “new” battery.
i went to Bosch premium AGM batteries on three of my cars
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Thread Starter
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Jun 2018
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From: Texas
The reason I'm so convinced the starter shouldn't be the issue is both times the car was connected to another power source (wall battery charger, multitester jump box) it started perfectly. Both of those cases were before the new battery too.
I guess the question I should ask is, what should I try before going to the starter replacement. With a fresh battery is there some anti theft reset I have to do for it to start again I'm missing or something?
I'm just worried about a misdiagnosis, Thanks for all the help guys.
I guess the question I should ask is, what should I try before going to the starter replacement. With a fresh battery is there some anti theft reset I have to do for it to start again I'm missing or something?
I'm just worried about a misdiagnosis, Thanks for all the help guys.
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Joined: Sep 2016
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From: Ca
Rookie
Joined: Sep 2016
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From: Ca
If the cars start perfectly with an alternate power connected then im guessing you might have an issue with a terminal and or wiring. Do you have any corrossion ? Sometimes when battery terminals corrode they not only ruin the terminal but also the corrosion will make its way through the battery power or ground wire. If the wires have high resistance then it might be tough to start .
Intermediate
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 413
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From: California
The reason I'm so convinced the starter shouldn't be the issue is both times the car was connected to another power source (wall battery charger, multitester jump box) it started perfectly. Both of those cases were before the new battery too.
I guess the question I should ask is, what should I try before going to the starter replacement. With a fresh battery is there some anti theft reset I have to do for it to start again I'm missing or something?
I'm just worried about a misdiagnosis, Thanks for all the help guys.
I guess the question I should ask is, what should I try before going to the starter replacement. With a fresh battery is there some anti theft reset I have to do for it to start again I'm missing or something?
I'm just worried about a misdiagnosis, Thanks for all the help guys.
If you can jump start the car and engine starts normally, the starter is definitely in good shape and there is no need to replace the starter. The problem is somewhere else. If you have a multimeter, test the battery as I described in my previous posting even though it is a brand new battery. Brand new battery may have been sitting on the shelf for a while or may not have been fully charged. If the new battery is not fully charged, the battery is the cause for the problem and then your indy shop unnecessarily replaced a good alternator.
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Last edited by yyymmm31; Jun 22, 2018 at 10:00 PM. Reason: correct a typo
Moderator
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From: TX
I think the cars function OK. It's more an issue of whether the battery functions OK. AGM batteries are not used in applications where the battery is mounted in the engine compartment because of heat concerns. AGM batteries and flooded cell batteries have different charging requirements. The LS460s charging systems are designed to charge flooded cell batteries. AGM batteries are more expensive than flooded cell batteries but the life expectancy is about the same, if the flooded cell battery is properly maintained - AGM batteries are maintenance free.
Racer
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,258
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From: Ca
I think the cars function OK. It's more an issue of whether the battery functions OK. AGM batteries are not used in applications where the battery is mounted in the engine compartment because of heat concerns. AGM batteries and flooded cell batteries have different charging requirements. The LS460s charging systems are designed to charge flooded cell batteries. AGM batteries are more expensive than flooded cell batteries but the life expectancy is about the same, if the flooded cell battery is properly maintained - AGM batteries are maintenance free.
agms have a normally longer cycle life and self discharge slower. The second feature is a help here
been in the fancy rv industry since 1984 and battery issues are always a major cost/benefit judgement,
my brand of rv came new with optima spiral wound red top agm’s for the Diesel engine starting and typically last 12 years.
sesled VRLA batteries had roughly 1/2 the service life in our rv’s.
Replacement of flooded cell with the AGM’s allowed the engine batteries to be relocated to a more exposed higher temp area in the engine bay. The airflow does help diissapate heat.
they are more expensive by maybe 20% but I removed a nearly new Lexus oem battery to install a Bosch(east penn on the east coast, Johnson controls on the west coast) AGM for the lower self discharge.
Moderator
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: TX
Normal agm and flooded cell batteries to my knowledge have the same charging requirements. Gels and lifeline/Concorde AGM’s have a .2 volt lower charging voltage. Lifeline AGM’s are used extensively by the military and airplane people.
agms have a normally longer cycle life and self discharge slower. The second feature is a help here
been in the fancy rv industry since 1984 and battery issues are always a major cost/benefit judgement,
my brand of rv came new with optima spiral wound red top agm’s for the Diesel engine starting and typically last 12 years.
sesled VRLA batteries had roughly 1/2 the service life in our rv’s.
Replacement of flooded cell with the AGM’s allowed the engine batteries to be relocated to a more exposed higher temp area in the engine bay. The airflow does help diissapate heat.
they are more expensive by maybe 20% but I removed a nearly new Lexus oem battery to install a Bosch(east penn on the east coast, Johnson controls on the west coast) AGM for the lower self discharge.
I stand by my comments.
http://batteryuniversity.com/index.p..._glass_mat_agm
Self discharge rate is so low in modern automotive batteries that it is not even a consideration - the standby load of modern cars would deplete the battery long before self discharge would be a factor.
Well, I wouldn't throw a new starter into the mix unless the "mechanic" that misdiagnosed the problen in the first place takes out his new alternator first. My money is still on the battery.