ragingf80

The OP makes it sound like there is more to it than that. So the take-away would be to stay away from the AWD versions, which I kind of already knew. Audis used to have the same issues with the pre 2010 models as well with their AWD models. I'm wondering what the other looming issues he foresaw were that made him jump ship.

SW17LS

This is not a "new story" lol, I have always had this opinion. Note I did not say it was universally a bad idea. This is what I said:

There are certainly exceptions. I would cite you as an exception, Roadfrog, Doublebase, the list goes on. Your expectations are set properly, you're prepared for and able to handle expenses and repairs as they come forward. For instance you are preparing to gut the air suspension system. If you suddenly found out your control arms needed to be replaced you would be able to handle that repair, you wouldn't freak out and sell the car for a huge loss like the OP did.

The point is MOST buyers buy cars and make payments on them and expect that they will be problem free and trouble free and are not prepared for potentially sizable unplanned repair costs. THAT is what is not a reasonable expectation when buying an 8 year old complex luxury car. People should not buy these cars if money is tight, and they need cheap reliable transportation. They should not say "Hey, its $22,000 and this is way better than a new Corolla", they need to understand what they are buying and that its going to cost way more to operate than a new Corolla.

For you guys its fine as a car because you understand what it is and know what to expect. I personally would not buy a car this old and finance it for 5 years, but thats a financial decision thats up to you. For the OP, it was a huge mistake to buy that car from the get go, the fault is not that the LS460 is a crappy car which was the veiled point of his post.

If somebody is like the OP and needs and wants a car where he has a warranty and doesn't want to deal with potential repairs, or can't deal with potential repairs, I wouldn't buy one without a CPO warranty...so 5 years I guess is as old as I would reccomend buying. If somebody is comfortable making repairs, can do work on their own, can source aftermarket parts and save a lot of money (great example is Roadfrog) then you can buy much older, but I still would recommend buying what you can pay for with cash.

Personally? I wouldn't buy one more than 3 years old because I don't like paying cash for cars, and I would not be able to wrap my head around financing a car when its potentially 8+ years old with well over 100k miles and I'm still making payments on it.

LOL, I wish it only cost $15,000.

I would buy a new Hyundai for $22,000 before I bought an 8-9 year old LS460 all day long. I wouldn't even hesitate on that decision. If I was buying used anyways, I would go a couple years older to get a Lexus vs a Hyundai, but new Hyundai vs used Lexus, I wouldn't even hesitate.

Try and keep your reply mature, respectful and free from assaults upon my character lol

Yet, here we are in a thread where a member has bought an old LS and been so shocked by the cost of the repairs he is facing he sold the car for a sizable loss, and ran back to a much newer, cheaper car with a CPO warranty.

There certainly ARE costs, control arms, air suspension, various motors and such that go bad (power door closers, steering wheel motors, etc), ML amp issues, as these cars get even older you will find other issues, the costs of which will be higher than they will be on say an ES where most pars are shared with the Camry & Avalon. Your costs on any older car will be higher than with a newer car. In salty areas you have to think about replacement of exhaust components, catalytic converters, etc all of which are considerably more on this car than on a single exhaust ES350 for example.

Thats the point, when you buy an 8-9-10 year old LS460 and finance it for 5 years as some people do, its 13-14-15 years old by the time its paid for, will have considerably more than 130-170k miles and be open to all kinds of repairs that a buyer may or may not be able to handle. Go in the LS400 or LS430 forum and look at some of the posts. "My car will start but won't run". "Check engine light on with loss of power", "Crazy idle issues", "Rough idle, stalling", "No ignition on either side". When the LS460s get that old, the same issues will appear...it would suck to deal with those issues AND be making car payments...

Its a great car, but nothing lasts forever. People just have to have realistic expectations.

To boil it down:

1. If somebody like Roadfrog came to me and said "hey Steve I'm going to buy this 9 year old LS460, its in good shape what do you think? I would say go for it.

2. If one of my kids came to me at 19 and said "Hey Dad, I can handle a $350 a month car payment, I'd much rather have thus 9 year old LS460 than a new Corolla, what do you think?" I would tell him he's crazy and to get the Corolla.

Does that make sense to you?

roadfrog

Ditto.....as always, his contributions are valuable and insightful.....even if you don't agree with him. Furthermore, 1willy1 is not a moderator and does not need to direct him on how to post. "short and to the point" isn't always the most informative way to provide valuable information. Sheesh.

riknchar

I've always appreciated Steve's alternative point of view regarding leasing. I don't necessarily agree with him, but I'm the kind of person who actively seeks out those with views different from mine in order to learn, and I appreciate the effort Steve puts in to explain his point of view on leasing.I'd like to add my opinion to this thread. I believe (and think the analytics would support me) that the single highest cost associated with owning an LS is depreciation.

Think about it… Routine maintenance is a bit higher than that of a Corolla or Civic, but not THAT much more. Repairs are few and far between, but do cost quite a bit more than a more mass-produced car, especially for those who rely on the Lexus dealer for all service, but again, we’re talking a few thousand dollars total over many years (worst case scenario).

If I buy (or in theory lease) a brand new Lexus today for $70,000, in 3 years/36K miles, it will get me about $35-38K in trade in (yes, probably a bit more if I go to the trouble of selling it myself, but I don’t normally do that). I’ve spent $32-$35K (plus whatever financing costs/use of money costs I paid), or roughly $11-12K per year, to use this car. Leasing yields roughly the same costs, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the lease terms.

Now say I buy the dreaded 8-year old LS that Steve warns us against. That would be a 2009. Say I find one with fairly low miles – maybe 70K, and I pay $21,000. In three years, I MAY have to replace the Control Arms ($1200 at an Indy Shop), brakes, exhaust system (unlikely), brake actuator, starter (unlikely), etc. The car will almost certainly need some repairs over 3 years, but these repairs will probably run under $5k, especially at an Indy shop. An 11-year old LS (a 2007 today) with 110K miles is still worth around $13-14K, so my depreciation cost would be around $7-8K. Add that to my extra repairs ($5k), and I’ve got a 3-year cost of ownership of $12-13K.

The cars themselves haven’t changed all that much between 2007 and 2017, other than some nicer blue-tooth features, a front grill that some like and others don’t, and blind-spot monitoring (nice, but definitely not necessary).

I’m definitely not opposed to buying a new (or newer) LS, if I choose to spend my money that way. But I think many people on this forum see the wisdom of not chasing the newest model year, and saving significant money by buying (or keeping) an older LS. As for me, I’m thinking about trading in my 9-year old LS600hL (81K miles) on a 2014 CPO LS460L, even knowing that financially it won’t be as smart as just keeping my beautiful 2008… But the lure of the newer models is strong...

That’s why I do disagree with Steve about the concept of not financing an 8-year old car. Though like I said, I enjoy hearing his perspective, and I can see some of his points ring true.

SW17LS

No doubt the largest cost is depreciation, by a WIDE margin. My only point is one of expectation. Just because you can afford a "$25,000 car" doesn't mean you can afford a 9 year old LS460. You must be prepared for unanticipated repairs and costs, and go in with your eyes wide open.

The issue is when people like the OP of this thread buy them expecting them to never need a repair ever, and are then unprepared for the reality that while they are very reliable for a big flagship car, they are not perfect and do have faults and common age related repairs.

That's my point about financing them, weeding out people who don't know what they're getting into.

riknchar

I can see your point. If a person can just barely qualify for a 60-month loan on a 2009 Lexus LS that is not covered by any sort of warranty, they may be in for a rough awakening if any of the potential problem areas crop up.

However, many people (me included) choose to take advantage of the low-rate financing (even if they can afford to pay cash) to keep their money working for them. I financed my 2008 LS600hL for 72 months at 2.25%. So yeah, I'll be paying back a loan on a car that is 14 years old! I did buy the extended CPO warranty to cover the car for the entire 6 years, though, and I can afford to pay cash if there are any out-of-pocket expenses. My investments have averaged nearly 20% per year for the past 3 years, so I'm happy I didn't tie up $43K by paying cash for the car (probably one of the reasons you like leasing).

SW17LS

Exactly, you are not the consumer I'm talking about lol

1WILLY1

iTrader: (9)

Yes it makes perfect sense now, thank you for clarifying

"Buying a used Lexus is a terrible idea" - SW15LS
"Buying a used Lexus is a great idea" - SW15LS

"The control arm issues on the 460's are minor and nothing to worry about" - SW15LS
"The control arm issues on the 460's are such a serious problem that you should avoid buying a used 460" - SW15LS

"Buying an 8 year old Lexus is silly and stupid" - SW15LS
"Buying a 9 year old Lexus is a great idea for Roadfrog " - SW15LS

Junglequac

I hope the BMW brings you many years of motoring pleasure. I will say that once the CPO runs out, the value on the BMW will most likely sink like a stone whereas the 460's being a Lexus should stay steady. While I have always loved the E90/92 generation of the 3 Series, things like the water pump costing close to $1000 at an indy, always scared me off.

My 16 year old nephew had a sweet 328 i 6 speed with the Sport Package that he unfortunately totaled last month, but with 16 year olds, at least one accident seems a fait accompli...

Chaos236

iTrader: (1)

I've owned mulltiple Lexus 4, Mercedes 3,BMW 2 and Porsche 9 . Lexus is 10x more reliable. 328's are very economical and very small inside. Enjoy as it will be more fun to drive.

Lexuslsguy

And that's where the A8 shines! Large and luxurious as well as the best handling out of the bunch excluding the Panamera. Combign that with the massaging front seats... sold. I spend 99.9% of the time behind the wheel I'm all about front massaging not rear lol. It took me about 6 months of searching and waiting for the right one to pop up.

SW17LS

You're taking things I've said out of context and changing the wording to try and make some sort of point. I never said any of the things I said above in the context you're implying that I did. The above are not direct quotes, you've fabricated them using pieces of what I've said to try and make your point.

I have never said that "universally buying a used Lexus is a bad idea", and I have never said "the control arm issues are such a serious problem you should avoid buying a used 460", you're just making stuff up here.

I've made this pretty clear for seemingly everybody but you, but I will attempt to make it even more clear.

*I* believe that buying a 8-9 year old (note, not "used", specifically one that is IMHO quite old) LS460 is in general, not a good idea. I think its an even worse idea if somebody is financing the car, and if they have limited resources for being able to handle repairs that come up, and will come up on any car of that age. *I* would never buy such a car especially in such a way. As I have said repeatedly I am not a used car person, and I would rather have a cheaper and lesser new or much newer car. Somebody like ricknchar is using financing as a financial management tool, he didn't finance his car because he had to. So while if I were him I wouldn't have made that purchase in that way, I don't think he's necessarily making a "mistake". If somebody is a younger person without his wealth financing the car because they have to financially and they don't understand the potential issues nor are they prepared to pay for potential repairs then I believe they are making a "mistake" buying this car, or any other car that old that is as complex as this car.

I do not believe that any of the issues the LS460 has are huge, or unusual, or excessive, nor have I ever said they are, but people have to understand that there ARE issues. If you have no money for repairs, any issue can be a huge issue. Any car as it ages will have issues, and no 9 year old car and certainly no 14 or 15 year old car, which it will be by the time a buyer has it paid off is going to be as trouble free as a new car or a 5 year old car. If people understand those issues, go for it. Roadfrog understands those issues, I assume you do, so while I would not make the purchase I don't think they are harming themselves by making the purchase. The OP of this thread harmed himself. I use Roadfrog as an example because he clearly understands the issues, he takes time sourcing parts that are inexpensive to mitigate the problems inherent to owning an older car. Literally nothing he chooses to do I would choose to do, save for his brakes which I also have. I would not purchase chinese parts on eBay, I would not buy off brand tires, I would not do any of those things but somehow he and I can disagree yet still respect each other. You don't have to agree with me, I don't care if you agree with me. Nor do I have to agree with you. You don't think the manner in which I acquired my car is a good idea, and it isn't something you would do and I'm okay with that as long as you don't insult me about it.

You seem to have an issue with my use of the term "silly", which actually makes the point for me I was trying to make by using that characterization. The reason I worded that in that way was in response to people's use of derogatory terms to describe leasing and people who lease. My point was that in my opinion their choice of vehicle and method for purchasing it is not a good idea, and I used a derogatory term to make a point, and absent the posts I was responding to deriding leasing and people who lease I never would have worded it in that way. I said it was silly to buy a car as old as the one you bought, which insulted you clearly, just as its insulting for me to read people telling me I'm stupid for leasing a car.

Oliver Enterprises

I think the thing that makes switching from an LS to any BMW a very obvious BAD choice, is because you can put Exhaust Vents on the LS, but not so on the BMW. Who wants to live in a world without Exhaust Vents? Just crazy...

However, I can see Steve's point. The Corolla or LS, $350 a month scenario is a really good way to understand the perspective. Depends on the buyer.

And lastly, I can't help it, but the statement about Hyundai being a premium brand, about makes me poop myself laughing. There's so many factors why I would never own one, but that's a different thread. Steve, I hope yours continues to serve you well.

UDel

A 2008 or 2009 car is not old, it is still the same basic model being sold today, and it is not crazy to expect a Lexus from those years to be mostly trouble free or not have very costly potential issues that a extended warranty may be a good idea. I had a 2001 V8 GS that wa mostly trouble free until recently totaled, no suspension issues. This is a Lexus, it should not be having the kind of issues so many are reporting especially over several model years and especially with Lexus charging so much to fix their design defects/failures. Extended warranties should not be a recommended thing with Lexus models, it is troubling for a company known for building cars that are mostly trouble free even with miles on them that it is something being recommended to avoid a possible money pit even on vehicles well maintained and driven easy. My search for a LS460 has been pretty limited due to expensive issues with this car, no air suspension which means no sport, no awd, no hybrid, pre 2009 avoid, even 2009 a little iffy, not too many miles, really look for 2011 or later or 2010 after certain build date for suspension finally being addressed but I ran a service check on a 2010 after the build date for the new suspension design and it still had a control arm issue/repair in its history. When running service history checks I see a lot of issues/repairs that are unacceptable and troubling for a more modern Lexus, pretty much all of them including test drives so far have suspension issues which many owners are dumping them instead of being gouged for a $4000 repair. I would have a LS460 by now if it were not for having to avoid a few wih issues like air suspension, awd, owners declining suspension issues, etc and it keeps giving me second thoughts and anxiety I could get one that has a very expensive repair waiting(wish the luxury package was not so rare/expensive for GS350), I can see why LSs that are not offered for a really good deal are not selling, too many possible expensive issues to be paying what many are asking.

Of course a Lexus is and should be more reliable then a German competitor, still does not mean many of the expensive issues with too many modern Lexus models is acceptable or should be forgiven.

anthony1

I'm fortune enough to have both. I purchased a 200 E39 540I 6spd manual 44K miles about 2 1/2 years ago. There's issues with suspensions too. I replaced them with polyurethane bushings. I've also replaced the valve cover gaskets, flush radiator, and replace brake fluid. I went in with knowledge from doing research from forums like this....that I'll be doing the work myself. Same as the 2008, 76K miles, LS I just got. Without this forum, it would be difficult and expensive to have to go to the dealer or independent shops. I knew to avoid getting airbag suspensions. The rest, I can deal with. I'm getting ready to replace the front control arms with polyurethane bushings. I ordered almost all new control arms except the main lower ones and ball joints. I've pressed the rubber bushings out and put polyurethane from Armstrong Distributing. I'll just press out the old bushings on the main lower control arms when I replace the others. I'm also adding another key fob by getting a used one for 60 on ebay then learn to program it myself with the help of Utube and Techstream software. I think the LS engine requires less maintenance work than the 540i.