SW17LS

UDel, you're making my point for me. People should not assume they are going to be perfect because they aren't. That's my only point, buyers should not buy these cars expecting them to need as little maintenance as a $25,000 new car. I'm not saying if it should or should not be that way, but that's the way it is.

If you are worried about repair costs of air suspension, control arms, so on and so forth you should not buy an older or old LS. Not a 460, 430 or 400. It's not like the GS or ES, I know I've had them all. The suspensions are soft, soft bushings, things are designed for the best performance and ride and not for the most longevity, repairs are more costly, people see the car as a more exotic type car and charge you more too. Even Toyota dealers aren't as open to working on an LS as they are a GS or ES, again I know I've had them all. It's not just the LS, you should not buy ANY flagship car if you aren't prepared for that. Just today I saw next door to a house I was looking at an 07-10 S550 sitting in a yard on failed air suspension with no tags. There's a car still worth $20k or so, and The owners I'm sure can't afford to fix it. Never should have bought it in the first place. Bet they're still making payments!

Something as simple as an oil change, you will pay more. This car holds 10 quarts of oil! Jiffy Lube or wherever, their advertised prices don't include that much oil, they will charge you a surcharge. Won't break the bank but it's an example of what I'm talking about. An ES? The price is on the wall because it's ordinary. Any gas station will work on it.

As for what is "old". IMHO anything between 5-7 years old is older, anything 8+ years old is old. If you're accustomed to driving older and old cars then your perspective may be different, but if I had a $1,000+ repair that needed to be made on a car of mine that was 7+ years old and 100k+ miles I would not think that was excessive or unusual at all. I've owned cars that old too and made those repairs as well.

roadfrog

Well, if your 540 is anything like my 7 series was, that is a HUGE understatement! Same with my wife's X5.

aw001

An opinion;

Just because someone can afford to buy a car, does not mean he/she/it can afford or maintain the said car.

I would imagine most people buy a car with loan or lease and some with cash. When repair comes up, its mostly cash or credit card.....

Alex.

Ok, i don't even know how to do the signature thing, so I am cutting and paste...

2014 LS460 AWD, Black with light grey/ shimamoku

SW17LS

Yeah, I would say that's the most obvious statement of the year lol

1WILLY1

iTrader: (9)

After 3 replies you still haven't clarified or bolstered your position in any way.

Its just backtracking and flip flopping and muddying the waters even further.

It was you who said buying a used Lexus was "silly" , and a "bad idea" , and here ive taken a direct quote from one of your old posts.

"There is absolutely no reason to be afraid of the LS460 lol. It's the most reliable flagship luxury sedan you can buy" -SW15LS

Your new positon claiming that the 460 is a bad idea to buy used is ONLY because someone made a general, yet negative comment about leasing, you took it personally and now you are going to try to start being negative about those who buy used..... again, this is all about your ego and not about the cars.

With all due respect you drive a Kia and are considering a Hyundai as a replacement for your 460........a lot of your car based opinions and decisions are way off in left field in my opinion.

SW17LS

Yes, the LS460 is the most reliable used luxury flagship you can buy. No it is not as reliable or inexpensive to maintain as a car that is not a flagship luxury car. I expect to pay more to
maintain my LS than I did my ESs or my GS, and I paid more to maintain the LS400 and LS430 than those cars too. Buy whatever you want, I'm entitled to my opinions and you can have yours. I'm going to share mine where it's of value whether you like it or not.

Enough, my position seems to be clear to everybody other than you. It's clear you've got a hard on for me, as I said before if you don't want to read what I post, put me on your ignore list. You say this is about my ego, I would question who's ego this is really about lol.

As for my Kia, yeah I've got a Kia and it's a well built car, better in several ways than the Lexus products I've owned recently including the LS460. The LS has several interior rattles I'm tracking down, one in the center console that I've disassembled the console and put foam in to combat (with limited success) and I have one somewhere behind me I need to track down. Kia has no rattles despite being beat on way harder than the LS which is babied. My GS and my 2010 ES also had interior rattles. LS400, LS430 and ES300 had no rattles even after many years and 100k+ miles. My LS460, GS350 and ES350 all developed rattles before 30,000 miles. Not good.

So yeah, I might just get a Genesis G90 next time. If you're not open to other possibilities that's your loss.

1WILLY1

iTrader: (9)

I like the fact you post here a lot and being opinionated is a good thing too, but I do disagree with you on many things and theres no harm in debating it.

One thing id like to say though, is that there is no reason to keep calling on Roadfrog anytime you are in a debate, you should be able to defend your positon alone.

SW17LS

Disagree all you want, but you don't simply disagree with me you attack me on a personal level calling me a "flawed person" and whatever such nonsense and that's not okay, we're both grown people (assumably) and I'm not going to put up with that. I'm happy to discuss things with you and talk with you but I'm not going to be ridden and attacked constantly which is how it's been from you lately. If you continue to do that I'm going to put you on my ignore list myself. I'm done talking about this with you in this thread.

As for Roadfrog, huh? I call on Roadfrog?! I used him as an example. Again, childish bull**** and I'm not interested in it.

roadfrog

Apparently Steve's statements were clear to everyone but you. Taking his several paragraphs and turning them into 3 sentences out of context, isn't fair and is completely inaccurate, only to fail at bolstering your argument. Enough already. Be civil for Pete's sake. This forum is a nice little corner of the automotive internet world and personal attacks aren't cool.

rgs92

Do you think the rattles would be covered under a warranty if it was in effect? Thanks.

SW17LS

No doubt, and it is under warranty. I'm going to try and address them myself just out of fear of the dealer making it worse, damaging panels, etc. Ultimately though I will take it in. Shouldn't have to though on this car.

And no I did not solicit Roadfrog's post above lol

wakebord99

First off i'm going to jump in here are state that I don't appreciate your condescending tone on this post and subsequent posts to myself along with other members of this community who are purchasing older LS cars and choose to take advantage of the 0.9% apr on a 60 month loan, which allows me to keep my resources tied up in other investments yielding well over this sum; netting a positive investment to my portfolio. I will say that I have a 3 car garage.. the LS was parked outside as my beater/commuter.

Additionally, I don't owe you an explanation of any sort but I will explain my logic to the community as a whole: This car was the cheapest car on the market at $15,350 with reasonable miles and sold at a Lexus dealer. As with any non warrantied car you have inherent risks but after buying and selling over 60 cars in the last 10 years I've developed generally good eye for what to usually look for, and Lexus wouldn't sell you a complete lemon right ?!?... plus they provided a free 3 month powertrain warranty just in case. Since this car had hit the plateau of the depreciation curve this eliminates the majority of the ownership costs.

In short I purchased the Lexus because these cars were supposed to be nearly trouble free for well over 300k miles, therefore I expected to drive away with a reliable and comfortable car with standard maintenance costs that had little to no depreciation costs. This was not the case for me...

SW17LS

I totally understand that you don't appreciate "the tone". Same as I don't appreciate the condescension and tone that I and others who choose to buy new cars and lease new cars continually get from people on the forum when we discuss that topic and those purchases. The fact that you don't appreciate "the tone" was the point of me using "the tone" in the first place.

Oy...not even sure where to start. You just had completely unrealistic expectations from the start, and you bought a crappy example which amplified the problem. You chose to buy an old car that was admittedly the least expensive one you could find, and what you wound up with was a car that suffered from the most common ailment these cars suffer from, knowledge of which you would have had if you had done even the slightest bit of research on the vehicle you were about to purchase. Literally, all you had to do was read page 1 of the CL LS460 forum. That is not a fault of the vehicle in question, its your fault that you didn't do your due diligence before jumping into that purchase. Why do you think that car was the least expensive one you could find? Because it needed control arms!

I've owned a lot of Lexus vehicles, they are very reliable, but they will not be "nearly trouble free for well over 300k miles". That is a cliche, NO vehicle will need no repairs for well over 300k miles. FYI, if you bought an older Lexus, you would have replaced 3 timing belts before you reached 300,000 miles at a cost of $1,300 or so a pop, so $3,900. Theres your control arm replacement right there and then some. You bought into a tagline, such as "lighting never strikes the same place twice"...well...it can... "Lexus cars will last well over 300,000 miles with very little repairs" is not an absolute certainty by far. You chose to buy the cheapest LS460 on the market and thats what you got, a cheap old car that needed work.

These are very expensive cars, they're complex and have expensive parts. No matter how reliable they are, they will cost you money if you own them for hundreds of thousands of miles. The LS460 will cost you less than any other flagship luxury car (S Class, 7 Series, Jag XJ, A8, so on), but it will cost you more than say an ES350 to drive for 300,000 miles.

wakebord99

My car: 2009 LS460 AWD with Air suspension at 133k miles

Here are my issues with the car that I sold:
1- Engine knocking sound
2- Lower control arms
3- Upper control arms
4- Hesitation upon acceleration
5- Audio through audio jack too quiet
6- Needed new tires
7- Excessive force required to hold car @ stop w/ac on
8- Floaty and uncontrolled ride
9- Shuttering when turning at low speeds

I purchased the car expecting a degree of maintenance as no used car is ever perfect. I am also willing to perform smaller repairs myself. In the 3 months I owned it I replaced brake pads, spark plugs, oil, and an oil control valve. I'm willing/able to do the research to find acceptable alternative parts in the aftermarket when the Lexus part is unreasonably priced. Ultimately the cost to have an independent shop repair just #2/3 with Lexus parts (good alts not available) I was looking at $3k and that left me with a car with 6 other issues all of which (especially #1) can cost a fair bit to resolve. Let's just hypothetically say I fix everything for $5k above, now throw that into a 2 year term before I need to make similar repairs and I've just added $200 per month to the cost of ownership nearly doubling the total monthly cost of the car.

For those who say that you should expect a car to need some maintenance, I agree. You buy certain cars knowing what you’re getting into. My Ferrari requires $14,000 in maintenance every 2 years but that is something you know going in. I bought this to be a glorified Toyota Avalon. The perception of the LS from everyone in the car community, and those in the Gen 1-3 LS forms, is that 130k miles is just the breaking-in period for an LS. And that once you get a few minor items ironed out the car will last you forever. In my case, and apparently the case with many others on this form who don't drive a new LS every 3 years (and some that do), is that the LS is not nearly as trouble free as the perception leads you to believe.



For those who are interested in more details about the issues and estimated costs I will continue below:

1- Engine knocking sound: This was starting to concern me greatly. I was looking for community support via the thread below and ultimately couldn’t find an acceptable solution. The sound got worse with each passing day and ultimately I couldn’t risk there being an engine failure.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...ine-knock.html

Ideas on what could have caused this noise ranged from a VVT/Oil Control Valve, to the VVT Sprockets in the front of the head, to the lifters, to the valves. I replaced the single cheapest part above at a cost of $25 and added 20% Lucas oil additive both without any luck. Each of the remaining items ranged between $750 and $5,000. None of the techs who looked at the car could identify a definitive cause so it was going to be a case of replace parts until they find the problem.

2- Lower control arms: Lexus parts4806X/486X0 at $1,000 for both sides + 6 hours labor

3- Upper control arms: Lexus parts 486X0 (4x) at $1,400 for both sides + 6 hours labor + alignment

4- Hesitation upon acceleration: Lexus claimed my car had up-to-date ECM software therefore TSB doesn’t apply. Tried cleaning the MAF sensors, replacing spark plugs, changing oil with no luck. May be related to #1 but unsure. O2 Sensors? $240ea x 6 Fuel filter? $400+ Unsure but with no codes it would have been a replace and wish scenario to resolve.

5- Audio through audio jack too quiet: This is a design flaw with the ML system cars. I tried both Bluetooth audio and plugging directly into the jack. To listen to audio books or podcasts I had to turn the volume up to 45+ on the highway after turning the source up. I don’t know if any reasonable sum of money would be able to resolve this issue.

6- Needed new tires: Tires were loud and unevenly warn due to #2/3 above. Maintenance yes but it was still going to be required before the winter at a cost of around $600

7- Excessive force required to hold car @ stop w/ac on: With AC off my car idled at 400 rpm. With AC on my car idled at 750 rpm. That extra 350 rpm meant the torque converter was partially engaging the transmission and would require a firm foot to hold the car still. I replaced the brake pads and bled the lines but no luck. Unknown if this is a design flaw or an issue with my transmission, either way not worth fixing.

8- Floaty and uncontrolled ride: With the air suspension the car would ride amazing around town, smoothest car I’ve ever owned. However around any sort of corner or at highway speeds above 80 mph the car would become extremely floaty. When I first realized how the car was taking corners I assumed that there was no front sway bar in the car, but to my surprise there is a huge one there. You can put it in sport suspension mode but all that does is firm the ride up to where bumps are too harsh and never makes the car feel playful or inspire confidence that if you needed to brake/veer out of a lane at highway speeds that the car would do what your asking it to.

9- Shuttering when turning at low speeds: This is also a well-documented TSB. I went to Lexus to buy their “magic” fluid and it costs $135 per qt. Our cars require 3.5 qts for the differential, but to make matters worse the dealer required that you put the fluid in 3 times, flushing between each fill. This means the total cost would have been over $1,800 to resolve.

I caution absolutely anyone who enjoys keeping their money from purchasing one of these cars as an older vehicle. Perhaps I just ended up with a car that has nearly every single problem (except the melting doors) all in one, but based on the threads I’ve read these problems are becoming more and more common as you reach 7+ years old on the AWD models.

wakebord99

I just want to reiterate what an amazing human being you sound like, and how you are literally providing my point with these quotes..

Here you are cautioning the LS community that you should expect an indeterminate amount of maintenance costs, expect countless problems, and that the LS cars are basically falling apart. Here is the person you all look up to.. not a good example of the community that I have come to respect.

Also you gloriously knowledgeable and smug little person.. our cars do not have a timing belt they have a timing chain with no service interval.