Traded LS for a BMW
05-30-17, 06:28 PM
#46
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by wakeboard99
I caution absolutely anyone who enjoys keeping their money from purchasing one of these cars as an older vehicle. Perhaps I just ended up with a car that has nearly every single problem (except the melting doors) all in one, but based on the threads I’ve read these problems are becoming more and more common as you reach 7+ years old on the AWD models.
But your experience makes the point I was trying to make, people need to be careful and they need to do research, and understand that this car will not go 300k with "no maintenance" as some like you believe, ESPECIALLY when they are used and have an uncertain past.
Its one thing to buy one new with 0 miles or lightly used and put 300,000 miles on it yourself, always carefully caring for it and maintaining it, addressing issues early on and not letting them fester and say "wow this is a great car, it lasted me 300,000 miles and I never had any major repairs". Its another thing to buy a beat on one that already has 133,000 miles of hard life and expect that car to need nothing and go to 300k with just routine service.
As cautionary as I have been about the LS460 and buying them when they're old, I have no doubt that if I choose to keep *MY* well maintained and babied LS460 for 300k miles (I just might) that I will have a reasonably trouble free ownership experience.
I bought this to be a glorified Toyota Avalon. The perception of the LS from everyone in the car community, and those in the Gen 1-3 LS forms, is that 130k miles is just the breaking-in period for an LS. And that once you get a few minor items ironed out the car will last you forever.
130k miles is not "breaking in" for any car, the best part of any cars life is behind it at 130k miles, even the LS. And it depends a lot on how the car was treated for those 130k miles. Again, cliche.
I just want to reiterate what an amazing human being you sound like, and how you are literally providing my point with these quotes..
Here you are cautioning the LS community that you should expect an indeterminate amount of maintenance costs, expect countless problems, and that the LS cars are basically falling apart. Here is the person you all look up to.. not a good example of the community that I have come to respect.
Here you are cautioning the LS community that you should expect an indeterminate amount of maintenance costs, expect countless problems, and that the LS cars are basically falling apart. Here is the person you all look up to.. not a good example of the community that I have come to respect.
Also you gloriously knowledgeable and smug little person.. our cars do not have a timing belt they have a timing chain with no service interval.
This is what I said:
Originally Posted by SW15LS
FYI, if you bought an older Lexus, you would have replaced 3 timing belts before you reached 300,000 miles at a cost of $1,300 or so a pop, so $3,900. Theres your control arm replacement right there and then some.
And also, FYI just having a timing chain doesn't mean it will never require a service...ask a mechanic about that.
Last edited by SW17LS; 05-30-17 at 06:43 PM.
05-30-17, 08:47 PM
#47
Lexus Fanatic
UDel, you're making my point for me. People should not assume they are going to be perfect because they aren't. That's my only point, buyers should not buy these cars expecting them to need as little maintenance as a $25,000 new car. I'm not saying if it should or should not be that way, but that's the way it is.
If you are worried about repair costs of air suspension, control arms, so on and so forth you should not buy an older or old LS. Not a 460, 430 or 400. It's not like the GS or ES, I know I've had them all. The suspensions are soft, soft bushings, things are designed for the best performance and ride and not for the most longevity, repairs are more costly, people see the car as a more exotic type car and charge you more too. Even Toyota dealers aren't as open to working on an LS as they are a GS or ES, again I know I've had them all. It's not just the LS, you should not buy ANY flagship car if you aren't prepared for that. Just today I saw next door to a house I was looking at an 07-10 S550 sitting in a yard on failed air suspension with no tags. There's a car still worth $20k or so, and The owners I'm sure can't afford to fix it. Never should have bought it in the first place. Bet they're still making payments!
Something as simple as an oil change, you will pay more. This car holds 10 quarts of oil! Jiffy Lube or wherever, their advertised prices don't include that much oil, they will charge you a surcharge. Won't break the bank but it's an example of what I'm talking about. An ES? The price is on the wall because it's ordinary. Any gas station will work on it.
As for what is "old". IMHO anything between 5-7 years old is older, anything 8+ years old is old. If you're accustomed to driving older and old cars then your perspective may be different, but if I had a $1,000+ repair that needed to be made on a car of mine that was 7+ years old and 100k+ miles I would not think that was excessive or unusual at all. I've owned cars that old too and made those repairs as well.
If you are worried about repair costs of air suspension, control arms, so on and so forth you should not buy an older or old LS. Not a 460, 430 or 400. It's not like the GS or ES, I know I've had them all. The suspensions are soft, soft bushings, things are designed for the best performance and ride and not for the most longevity, repairs are more costly, people see the car as a more exotic type car and charge you more too. Even Toyota dealers aren't as open to working on an LS as they are a GS or ES, again I know I've had them all. It's not just the LS, you should not buy ANY flagship car if you aren't prepared for that. Just today I saw next door to a house I was looking at an 07-10 S550 sitting in a yard on failed air suspension with no tags. There's a car still worth $20k or so, and The owners I'm sure can't afford to fix it. Never should have bought it in the first place. Bet they're still making payments!
Something as simple as an oil change, you will pay more. This car holds 10 quarts of oil! Jiffy Lube or wherever, their advertised prices don't include that much oil, they will charge you a surcharge. Won't break the bank but it's an example of what I'm talking about. An ES? The price is on the wall because it's ordinary. Any gas station will work on it.
As for what is "old". IMHO anything between 5-7 years old is older, anything 8+ years old is old. If you're accustomed to driving older and old cars then your perspective may be different, but if I had a $1,000+ repair that needed to be made on a car of mine that was 7+ years old and 100k+ miles I would not think that was excessive or unusual at all. I've owned cars that old too and made those repairs as well.
The soft suspension which leads to it being unreliable/having problems sounds more like just a excuse to give for the LS for the suspension issue it has among other issues, there are plenty of cars with soft suspension/ride softer that still don't have the kinds of suspension issues the LS is having, they did not design the suspension properly for a soft ride and dealership are gouging customers to repair it, it is pretty evident, they even supposedly addressed it with a new suspension/control arm design in 2011 or mid 2010 even though some owners of those years are still having issues. These cars are not that uniquely complicated where issues should just be expected or vastly more different then a Lexus GS, even if it is more complicated it still should be reliable and properly designed to last.
You can't have it both ways, either there are too many troubling expensive issues with this car that really should not be happening for a properly designed Lexus where you think it is crazy to buy one that is 5-8 years old or it is a very well made reliable car, issues are rare, and it should not be out of the ordinary to expect a pretty reliable, mostly painless ownership experience over the years and for ones with some miles on them like most older Lexus cars. Just because it was expensive or even "complicated" does not mean it should be or is okay to have several issues or it is normal for owners to be having these issues and having to pay so much to deal with them.
In this thread it sounds like some of the issues people have who are either shopping for this car or who have it and have had some expensive fixes they are angry about is when others are defending the car/Lexus a little too much on threads, saying this is normal, should be expected, should not complain about high prices/gouging being charged for fix, it is your fault for not researching and researching and having to look for quite a few things/eliminate so many potentials when you have expensive repairs just after purchase, etc while also saying the car is great, reliable, great choice, so much better then competitors, etc. With that kind of defending for what more and more see as a negative trend with Lexus there is less and less incentive for Lexus to make any changes or do the right thing for customers and may get the notion buyers and owners will just put up with it. It should be pretty universally unacceptable on a Lexus forum to have a Lexus flagship model where you have to avoid so many different things/years, it is recommended by many to get a extended warranty because it could be a money pit, etc That is not why many buy and support Lexus.
05-30-17, 09:41 PM
#48
Lexus Fanatic
Just because a car is more reliable than other competing cars doesn't mean it's going to be trouble free or inexpensive to maintain. If you want a flagship luxury car, the LS is the most reliable one you can buy, but it will be more costly to maintain than a lesser car. If you want to buy one, you should research what goes into maintaining one of these cars before you pull the trigger. That hasn't changed with the LS, it's always been that way. Of course, finding a well cared for one helps. When you let trouble spots pile up it can become overwhelming. This is not unique to the LS460.
If the LS aid too costly for you to maintain, you cannot afford any flagship luxury car because this is the least expensive one to maintain. Whether it "should be" or "shouldn't be" is beside the point, this is what it is.
If the LS aid too costly for you to maintain, you cannot afford any flagship luxury car because this is the least expensive one to maintain. Whether it "should be" or "shouldn't be" is beside the point, this is what it is.
05-30-17, 10:30 PM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
That is not why many buy and support Lexus.
05-30-17, 10:42 PM
#50
Apparently Steve's statements were clear to everyone but you. Taking his several paragraphs and turning them into 3 sentences out of context, isn't fair and is completely inaccurate, only to fail at bolstering your argument. Enough already. Be civil for Pete's sake. This forum is a nice little corner of the automotive internet world and personal attacks aren't cool.
As usual you jump in as male cheerleader to his posts, and play the passive aggressive role from the backround, stirring the pot yet calling for peace.
You two have been playing this same song for years now, its grown so incredibly predictable.
Anyways to try to get back on track , it sounds like the OP had a car that was definitely going to need some work and I don't blame him for jumping ship.
BMW's to me are not known for their reliability but if you got a full warrantee then your in great shape.
The newer 6 series sedans to me are beautiful machines, if I was ever to get a bimmer it would be one of those forsure.
05-30-17, 10:46 PM
#51
My car: 2009 LS460 AWD with Air suspension at 133k miles
Here are my issues with the car that I sold:
1- Engine knocking sound
2- Lower control arms
3- Upper control arms
4- Hesitation upon acceleration
5- Audio through audio jack too quiet
6- Needed new tires
7- Excessive force required to hold car @ stop w/ac on
8- Floaty and uncontrolled ride
9- Shuttering when turning at low speeds
I purchased the car expecting a degree of maintenance as no used car is ever perfect. I am also willing to perform smaller repairs myself. In the 3 months I owned it I replaced brake pads, spark plugs, oil, and an oil control valve. I'm willing/able to do the research to find acceptable alternative parts in the aftermarket when the Lexus part is unreasonably priced. Ultimately the cost to have an independent shop repair just #2/3 with Lexus parts (good alts not available) I was looking at $3k and that left me with a car with 6 other issues all of which (especially #1) can cost a fair bit to resolve. Let's just hypothetically say I fix everything for $5k above, now throw that into a 2 year term before I need to make similar repairs and I've just added $200 per month to the cost of ownership nearly doubling the total monthly cost of the car.
For those who say that you should expect a car to need some maintenance, I agree. You buy certain cars knowing what you’re getting into. My Ferrari requires $14,000 in maintenance every 2 years but that is something you know going in. I bought this to be a glorified Toyota Avalon. The perception of the LS from everyone in the car community, and those in the Gen 1-3 LS forms, is that 130k miles is just the breaking-in period for an LS. And that once you get a few minor items ironed out the car will last you forever. In my case, and apparently the case with many others on this form who don't drive a new LS every 3 years (and some that do), is that the LS is not nearly as trouble free as the perception leads you to believe.
For those who are interested in more details about the issues and estimated costs I will continue below:
1- Engine knocking sound: This was starting to concern me greatly. I was looking for community support via the thread below and ultimately couldn’t find an acceptable solution. The sound got worse with each passing day and ultimately I couldn’t risk there being an engine failure.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...ine-knock.html
Ideas on what could have caused this noise ranged from a VVT/Oil Control Valve, to the VVT Sprockets in the front of the head, to the lifters, to the valves. I replaced the single cheapest part above at a cost of $25 and added 20% Lucas oil additive both without any luck. Each of the remaining items ranged between $750 and $5,000. None of the techs who looked at the car could identify a definitive cause so it was going to be a case of replace parts until they find the problem.
2- Lower control arms: Lexus parts4806X/486X0 at $1,000 for both sides + 6 hours labor
3- Upper control arms: Lexus parts 486X0 (4x) at $1,400 for both sides + 6 hours labor + alignment
4- Hesitation upon acceleration: Lexus claimed my car had up-to-date ECM software therefore TSB doesn’t apply. Tried cleaning the MAF sensors, replacing spark plugs, changing oil with no luck. May be related to #1 but unsure. O2 Sensors? $240ea x 6 Fuel filter? $400+ Unsure but with no codes it would have been a replace and wish scenario to resolve.
5- Audio through audio jack too quiet: This is a design flaw with the ML system cars. I tried both Bluetooth audio and plugging directly into the jack. To listen to audio books or podcasts I had to turn the volume up to 45+ on the highway after turning the source up. I don’t know if any reasonable sum of money would be able to resolve this issue.
6- Needed new tires: Tires were loud and unevenly warn due to #2/3 above. Maintenance yes but it was still going to be required before the winter at a cost of around $600
7- Excessive force required to hold car @ stop w/ac on: With AC off my car idled at 400 rpm. With AC on my car idled at 750 rpm. That extra 350 rpm meant the torque converter was partially engaging the transmission and would require a firm foot to hold the car still. I replaced the brake pads and bled the lines but no luck. Unknown if this is a design flaw or an issue with my transmission, either way not worth fixing.
8- Floaty and uncontrolled ride: With the air suspension the car would ride amazing around town, smoothest car I’ve ever owned. However around any sort of corner or at highway speeds above 80 mph the car would become extremely floaty. When I first realized how the car was taking corners I assumed that there was no front sway bar in the car, but to my surprise there is a huge one there. You can put it in sport suspension mode but all that does is firm the ride up to where bumps are too harsh and never makes the car feel playful or inspire confidence that if you needed to brake/veer out of a lane at highway speeds that the car would do what your asking it to.
9- Shuttering when turning at low speeds: This is also a well-documented TSB. I went to Lexus to buy their “magic” fluid and it costs $135 per qt. Our cars require 3.5 qts for the differential, but to make matters worse the dealer required that you put the fluid in 3 times, flushing between each fill. This means the total cost would have been over $1,800 to resolve.
I caution absolutely anyone who enjoys keeping their money from purchasing one of these cars as an older vehicle. Perhaps I just ended up with a car that has nearly every single problem (except the melting doors) all in one, but based on the threads I’ve read these problems are becoming more and more common as you reach 7+ years old on the AWD models.
Here are my issues with the car that I sold:
1- Engine knocking sound
2- Lower control arms
3- Upper control arms
4- Hesitation upon acceleration
5- Audio through audio jack too quiet
6- Needed new tires
7- Excessive force required to hold car @ stop w/ac on
8- Floaty and uncontrolled ride
9- Shuttering when turning at low speeds
I purchased the car expecting a degree of maintenance as no used car is ever perfect. I am also willing to perform smaller repairs myself. In the 3 months I owned it I replaced brake pads, spark plugs, oil, and an oil control valve. I'm willing/able to do the research to find acceptable alternative parts in the aftermarket when the Lexus part is unreasonably priced. Ultimately the cost to have an independent shop repair just #2/3 with Lexus parts (good alts not available) I was looking at $3k and that left me with a car with 6 other issues all of which (especially #1) can cost a fair bit to resolve. Let's just hypothetically say I fix everything for $5k above, now throw that into a 2 year term before I need to make similar repairs and I've just added $200 per month to the cost of ownership nearly doubling the total monthly cost of the car.
For those who say that you should expect a car to need some maintenance, I agree. You buy certain cars knowing what you’re getting into. My Ferrari requires $14,000 in maintenance every 2 years but that is something you know going in. I bought this to be a glorified Toyota Avalon. The perception of the LS from everyone in the car community, and those in the Gen 1-3 LS forms, is that 130k miles is just the breaking-in period for an LS. And that once you get a few minor items ironed out the car will last you forever. In my case, and apparently the case with many others on this form who don't drive a new LS every 3 years (and some that do), is that the LS is not nearly as trouble free as the perception leads you to believe.
For those who are interested in more details about the issues and estimated costs I will continue below:
1- Engine knocking sound: This was starting to concern me greatly. I was looking for community support via the thread below and ultimately couldn’t find an acceptable solution. The sound got worse with each passing day and ultimately I couldn’t risk there being an engine failure.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...ine-knock.html
Ideas on what could have caused this noise ranged from a VVT/Oil Control Valve, to the VVT Sprockets in the front of the head, to the lifters, to the valves. I replaced the single cheapest part above at a cost of $25 and added 20% Lucas oil additive both without any luck. Each of the remaining items ranged between $750 and $5,000. None of the techs who looked at the car could identify a definitive cause so it was going to be a case of replace parts until they find the problem.
2- Lower control arms: Lexus parts4806X/486X0 at $1,000 for both sides + 6 hours labor
3- Upper control arms: Lexus parts 486X0 (4x) at $1,400 for both sides + 6 hours labor + alignment
4- Hesitation upon acceleration: Lexus claimed my car had up-to-date ECM software therefore TSB doesn’t apply. Tried cleaning the MAF sensors, replacing spark plugs, changing oil with no luck. May be related to #1 but unsure. O2 Sensors? $240ea x 6 Fuel filter? $400+ Unsure but with no codes it would have been a replace and wish scenario to resolve.
5- Audio through audio jack too quiet: This is a design flaw with the ML system cars. I tried both Bluetooth audio and plugging directly into the jack. To listen to audio books or podcasts I had to turn the volume up to 45+ on the highway after turning the source up. I don’t know if any reasonable sum of money would be able to resolve this issue.
6- Needed new tires: Tires were loud and unevenly warn due to #2/3 above. Maintenance yes but it was still going to be required before the winter at a cost of around $600
7- Excessive force required to hold car @ stop w/ac on: With AC off my car idled at 400 rpm. With AC on my car idled at 750 rpm. That extra 350 rpm meant the torque converter was partially engaging the transmission and would require a firm foot to hold the car still. I replaced the brake pads and bled the lines but no luck. Unknown if this is a design flaw or an issue with my transmission, either way not worth fixing.
8- Floaty and uncontrolled ride: With the air suspension the car would ride amazing around town, smoothest car I’ve ever owned. However around any sort of corner or at highway speeds above 80 mph the car would become extremely floaty. When I first realized how the car was taking corners I assumed that there was no front sway bar in the car, but to my surprise there is a huge one there. You can put it in sport suspension mode but all that does is firm the ride up to where bumps are too harsh and never makes the car feel playful or inspire confidence that if you needed to brake/veer out of a lane at highway speeds that the car would do what your asking it to.
9- Shuttering when turning at low speeds: This is also a well-documented TSB. I went to Lexus to buy their “magic” fluid and it costs $135 per qt. Our cars require 3.5 qts for the differential, but to make matters worse the dealer required that you put the fluid in 3 times, flushing between each fill. This means the total cost would have been over $1,800 to resolve.
I caution absolutely anyone who enjoys keeping their money from purchasing one of these cars as an older vehicle. Perhaps I just ended up with a car that has nearly every single problem (except the melting doors) all in one, but based on the threads I’ve read these problems are becoming more and more common as you reach 7+ years old on the AWD models.
Even just the hesitation would of been enough for me to want to move on to a new vehicle.
With the bimmer and the 3 year warrantee at least you can get some relative peace of mind.
05-30-17, 11:07 PM
#52
Lexus Fanatic
Roadfrog you have absolutely no right to speak for anyone on this forum other then yourself , its a failed attempt to try to push the point in your favor and it wont work with me.
I'll be anyone's "cheerleader", if I agree with them. Heck I've been YOUR cheerleader on occasion. Rare yes...but ya know. And on that note...conversely, I've vehemently disagreed with Steve at times....albeit with respect and void of personal attacks. I'm also unsure what you mean by "bolstering my argument"....I don't recall having any particular argument on this thread (?)
05-30-17, 11:09 PM
#53
Lead Lap
Op made a smart move at the current time. Having a backup in case things go south like a warranty is always nice.
I still think its all in the expectations and individuals cases. If ones drive the most reliable vehicle known to mankind like an idiot, ignore maintenance, abuse the suspension I`d expect accelerated wear and tear; generalizations have found the outlier. Its not immune to the laws of physics. Similarly take for instance two top shelf sedans from Lexus and BMW. In all the years of Lexus, engine issues have not been a well documented problem on the forum, while in BMW land timing chain stretch resulting in CIP were common place with the dual charged N63 motor. Now there are some motors that exhibited the stretch, while others chugged along with no issues. Complexity, and individual cases. The generalization however that I made is what ends up being the take home message since its distilled and an "aha" moment. Like with any purchase you want (at least I hope) to pursue your due diligence and not go by random generalizations of a brand from the net.
I still think its all in the expectations and individuals cases. If ones drive the most reliable vehicle known to mankind like an idiot, ignore maintenance, abuse the suspension I`d expect accelerated wear and tear; generalizations have found the outlier. Its not immune to the laws of physics. Similarly take for instance two top shelf sedans from Lexus and BMW. In all the years of Lexus, engine issues have not been a well documented problem on the forum, while in BMW land timing chain stretch resulting in CIP were common place with the dual charged N63 motor. Now there are some motors that exhibited the stretch, while others chugged along with no issues. Complexity, and individual cases. The generalization however that I made is what ends up being the take home message since its distilled and an "aha" moment. Like with any purchase you want (at least I hope) to pursue your due diligence and not go by random generalizations of a brand from the net.
05-30-17, 11:48 PM
#54
I don't care if "it works with you". I can speak whatever I wish to...that's how forums work....as long as it's civil and doesn't berate and become disrespectful. Too bad if you disagree.....that's how it works. "Absolutely no right"? Lol.
I'll be anyone's "cheerleader", if I agree with them. Heck I've been YOUR cheerleader on occasion. Rare yes...but ya know. And on that note...conversely, I've vehemently disagreed with Steve at times....albeit with respect and void of personal attacks. I'm also unsure what you mean by "bolstering my argument"....I don't recall having any particular argument on this thread (?)
I'll be anyone's "cheerleader", if I agree with them. Heck I've been YOUR cheerleader on occasion. Rare yes...but ya know. And on that note...conversely, I've vehemently disagreed with Steve at times....albeit with respect and void of personal attacks. I'm also unsure what you mean by "bolstering my argument"....I don't recall having any particular argument on this thread (?)
You can say whatever you want regarding yourself, but don't try to speak for anyone else
We are all adults and we can all voice our own opinions
05-31-17, 05:33 AM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by roadfrog
In my case it is. I got into my LS BECAUSE it's the most reliable Ultra Luxury sedan you can buy...bar none. Coming from my "flagship" BMW 7 series, has caused me to be almost giddy every time I drive it. It took me a while to get used to not hearing a warning chime or seeing a check engine light etc to get my attention every time I drove my car.
Last edited by SW17LS; 05-31-17 at 05:57 AM.
05-31-17, 07:25 AM
#56
Former Sponsor
I'll throw my $0.02 in. It appears the OP got a car that had problems. Likely because the previous owner decided not to deal with the problem(s) for whatever reason. It also seems that the OP dealt with the problems effectively. A person can sort through problems to resolve them. Or a person can abandon ship, and not deal with them. It seems from wakebord's replies, he had a really good grip as to what the problems were, and what it would require to fix them. And to an extent (an extent I didn't fully gather) he made an attempt to deal with them.
I personally think wakebord did what I would have done. Once my car has umpteen different problems, each being either complex, expensive, or with an unknown solution (so it would just be trial and error for repair), I don't believe I'm going to deal with it. I'm likely going to dump it and move on.
I certainly don't find any error in looking for a nice vehicle and trying to find one that is inexpensive. I don't read into it that wakebord was expecting the car to be perfect. But he (nor would anyone else) expect what the reality was. I think I would have dumped it too. The only difference is, I would not have replaced it with a BMW.
Lastly, an ES 350 is more similarly comparable to a Camry, not an Avalon. But I don't think an Avalon compares well to an LS, because an Avalon is FWD. And in my mind, that puts it into a different segment. Heck, I know some OEMs (that I worked for) use totally different (engineering) teams to develop FWD vehicles versus RWD vehicles. So, I personally don't compare an Avalon to an LS.
Jason
I personally think wakebord did what I would have done. Once my car has umpteen different problems, each being either complex, expensive, or with an unknown solution (so it would just be trial and error for repair), I don't believe I'm going to deal with it. I'm likely going to dump it and move on.
I certainly don't find any error in looking for a nice vehicle and trying to find one that is inexpensive. I don't read into it that wakebord was expecting the car to be perfect. But he (nor would anyone else) expect what the reality was. I think I would have dumped it too. The only difference is, I would not have replaced it with a BMW.
Lastly, an ES 350 is more similarly comparable to a Camry, not an Avalon. But I don't think an Avalon compares well to an LS, because an Avalon is FWD. And in my mind, that puts it into a different segment. Heck, I know some OEMs (that I worked for) use totally different (engineering) teams to develop FWD vehicles versus RWD vehicles. So, I personally don't compare an Avalon to an LS.
Jason
05-31-17, 07:40 AM
#57
Lexus Fanatic
If you're looking for good space, some luxury in a nice riding car that will be dirt cheap to maintain, the ES is a great choice. If you want a super well built car with an incredibly smooth and quiet ride, the best levels of refinement and that will be as reliable as a car of that caliber can be, then the LS is a great choice. The "as reliable as a car of that caliber can be" is important. The ES is a basic FWD Toyota with a naturally aspirated electronic injection V6 that runs on regular gas. The LS is not that lol. I've had several of both, and the LS is a way better car you're going to pay more to maintain it though.
05-31-17, 08:04 AM
#58
Pole Position
Folks, I wanted to thank all of you for being an amazing resource for fellow LS owners. Rarely have you blindly told the masses to go search for an answer, or given the shade for more Jr members.
I'm sorry to report that my time here, short as it mayet have been, is now over. With thousands of dollars in repairs looming, and no reputable warranty groups in sight to protect sufficiently from future problems I've decided to take the rather substantial hit financially and trade the car in for a 2014 bmw.
I need a car that primarily gets me to work every day, while still looking to retain a pride of ownership the LS provided. I decided on a cpo bmw 328 x drive with 28k miles. The tech is way ahead of my 09 LS, while the comfort is traded for sporty nature and 8 more mpg. In total my monthly payment went up 60.00, but it came with piece of mind and a 3 year, 73k bumper to bumper warranty.
If I were to pass some advice to future ls buyers, I'll say a comprehensive warranty is required on the AWD models as many of the common points of suspension failure are not available on the aftermarket. Buying from Lexus does not guarantee a trouble free car is being offered.
I wish you all continued success, and hope the aftermarket ultimately recognizes the need for better control arm support.
Signing off JS
I'm sorry to report that my time here, short as it mayet have been, is now over. With thousands of dollars in repairs looming, and no reputable warranty groups in sight to protect sufficiently from future problems I've decided to take the rather substantial hit financially and trade the car in for a 2014 bmw.
I need a car that primarily gets me to work every day, while still looking to retain a pride of ownership the LS provided. I decided on a cpo bmw 328 x drive with 28k miles. The tech is way ahead of my 09 LS, while the comfort is traded for sporty nature and 8 more mpg. In total my monthly payment went up 60.00, but it came with piece of mind and a 3 year, 73k bumper to bumper warranty.
If I were to pass some advice to future ls buyers, I'll say a comprehensive warranty is required on the AWD models as many of the common points of suspension failure are not available on the aftermarket. Buying from Lexus does not guarantee a trouble free car is being offered.
I wish you all continued success, and hope the aftermarket ultimately recognizes the need for better control arm support.
Signing off JS
What did you drive as your daily driver before the 460? I ask because I came from a 400 and 430 and do find the 460 engine noticeably louder than the prior LS generations. Curious if the "knocking" you heard is just the different sound from direct injection on the 460 - I assume not since it sounds like you went to great lengths to get it looked into. I read another post in the 3rd gen forum about a guy who owned a 460 (think it was '07-'09) who actually had the same complaint and ditched his 460 to go back to a 430. He mentioned taking it to Lexus and them considering a complete engine rebuild...so sounded like maybe there were some cars with an abnormal engine sound.
Also, FWIW, I completely agree with you on the sound levels of the ML system. I am 37 (and still have good hearing) and find the variation of the sound level varies greatly from one source to the next - we also have a LX570 with ML and have the same issue. So far that is really my only complaint about the 460 (knocking on wood).
A few months ago I bought a very late model 2010 460L (not AWD and not air ride) with 60k miles and hope to have a good run with it like I did in my 400 and 430. I won't go down the worm hole of why I always buy used and why I'm personally comfortable doing this, but I did mentally prepare myself for the roughly $1,500 to $2,000 in control arm repair when buying the car (roughly same cost of timing belt on a 400 and 430 that I did about every 2 years given how much I drive). Sorry to hear about your LS experience and wish you well in the BMW. Maybe you'll be back when your warranty expires!
05-31-17, 10:33 AM
#59
Lexus Fanatic
I believe the word is "cheerleading". Lol.
05-31-17, 11:30 AM
#60
Lexus Fanatic
To the OP did you check the car out thoroughly before you bought it, did you notice anything while driving or shortly after. Did you say you bought it from a Lexus dealership? They really sold a car with so many expensive issues and are not taking care of them or trying to help you out? Maybe you were the one I commented to about a Lexus dealership bought car that had thousands of dollars worth of issues in less then 3 months, I would contact corporate, BBB, and write as many negative reviews as you can, if you had all these issues shortly after buying the car the dealership would have known about them but they did not repair them and sold it anyway likely saying the car is "clean".
Did you do a Lexus Pre Purchase Inspection before buying? Would Lexus even be obligated in any way to repair things that they said were fine after you paid for the inspection? It almost makes sense for them to just say most or all cars are fine if there is no repercussions if something goes wrong right after purchase because they will just be getting more business, etc.
Did you do a Lexus Pre Purchase Inspection before buying? Would Lexus even be obligated in any way to repair things that they said were fine after you paid for the inspection? It almost makes sense for them to just say most or all cars are fine if there is no repercussions if something goes wrong right after purchase because they will just be getting more business, etc.