DIY For Transmission Flush
10-08-10, 07:58 AM
#31
Driver School Candidate
It's all about the TCO
In all of the threads I've not seen anyone nail the motivation behind the 2004+ no ATF change policy. Lexus and other manufacturers are very sensitive about total cost of ownership (TCO). If their regular maintenance schedule calls for ATF replacement, then they get hit with a higher TCO vs. their competition.
Skeptical? It's almost a universal truth that Lexus parts are practically 2x the price of the same part made by the same OEM (i.e. Aisin) - but not officially badged as Lexus. There are a few exceptions to this rule, like the 430's waterpump. The Lex dealers charge the same price ($99) as you'd pay for the Aisin part. Why no mark up here - attack of conscience? Hardly.
It's because the water pump figures into TCO calculations, so they're deliberately not marking up the item to reduce TCO figures. Same with the ATF T-IV - you'd think it would be $12 a quart, but it's not. Again, it counts against TCO, so they don't bend you over a barrel on it. You'll see this pattern frequently: they'll forgo their markup profits on items that count against TCO.
About seven years ago, car manufacturers got the bright idea that they could get away with not changing the ATF at all. Take it out of the maintenance schedule and they lower their TCO figures - great (for them)! But recognize they're doing this at your peril. They've done a calculation and determined they can get away with it. And that's all. Just because they don't officially recommend it anymore doesn't mean it's not the best thing to do for the longevity of your vehicle.
The people saying "Lexus knows best" aren't considering that all the mechanical advice given is tainted by company politics, and sometimes the engineers who know better are told to shut up and sit in a corner by the suits. What other pausible explanation is there?
(1) The six speed is magically engineered to never wear out it's ATF?
(2) Lexus and other manufacturers were wrong for years about the need to change ATF prior to 2004?
(3) <insert you favorite conspiracy theory here>
The final give-away is that they have to make an exception for towing. That tells you everything you need to know: they're pushing things to the limit and figure they'll get away with it (until the ATF turns black and kills your ATX, but that's well beyond their warranty concerns).
I don't expect everyone to believe me - some people believe the moon landing was faked...so be it; there's no point debating irrational people. But hopefully this will ring true to most who read it.
Skeptical? It's almost a universal truth that Lexus parts are practically 2x the price of the same part made by the same OEM (i.e. Aisin) - but not officially badged as Lexus. There are a few exceptions to this rule, like the 430's waterpump. The Lex dealers charge the same price ($99) as you'd pay for the Aisin part. Why no mark up here - attack of conscience? Hardly.
It's because the water pump figures into TCO calculations, so they're deliberately not marking up the item to reduce TCO figures. Same with the ATF T-IV - you'd think it would be $12 a quart, but it's not. Again, it counts against TCO, so they don't bend you over a barrel on it. You'll see this pattern frequently: they'll forgo their markup profits on items that count against TCO.
About seven years ago, car manufacturers got the bright idea that they could get away with not changing the ATF at all. Take it out of the maintenance schedule and they lower their TCO figures - great (for them)! But recognize they're doing this at your peril. They've done a calculation and determined they can get away with it. And that's all. Just because they don't officially recommend it anymore doesn't mean it's not the best thing to do for the longevity of your vehicle.
The people saying "Lexus knows best" aren't considering that all the mechanical advice given is tainted by company politics, and sometimes the engineers who know better are told to shut up and sit in a corner by the suits. What other pausible explanation is there?
(1) The six speed is magically engineered to never wear out it's ATF?
(2) Lexus and other manufacturers were wrong for years about the need to change ATF prior to 2004?
(3) <insert you favorite conspiracy theory here>
The final give-away is that they have to make an exception for towing. That tells you everything you need to know: they're pushing things to the limit and figure they'll get away with it (until the ATF turns black and kills your ATX, but that's well beyond their warranty concerns).
I don't expect everyone to believe me - some people believe the moon landing was faked...so be it; there's no point debating irrational people. But hopefully this will ring true to most who read it.
The following users liked this post:
stuckincal (10-05-19)
10-08-10, 03:15 PM
#32
Pole Position
Good post Alex,I'm inclined to agree with you. 99% of policy made by manufacturers is on a cost vs benefit analysis.
Toyota in Australia (and possibly the US also) put the oil change interval up to 15k km on the 30series camrys,up from 10k to cheapen the TCO,and to remain competitive in the marketing game versus other manufacturers. What happened? They started losing engines and paying for them under warranty when they started gunking up and spinning bearings. That would have hurt their bottom line and in the dealership we were told to go back to recommending a 10k km interval... The gamble with reliability vs marketing didn't pay off in that case.
The gearbox is a mechanical part and it wears. the fluid is going to suffer. You cannot escape that fact and like it or not,there is no magical fluid out there that can last indefinitely.
If you drive the car hard,it needs to be changed. If you want the car to last,it has to be changed. If you're the manufacturer,it just has to last a bit beyond the end of the warranty period.
Do your own cost analysis. does a new gearbox cost less than a fluid flush? No? Quandry solved,change the oil.
Justin...
Toyota in Australia (and possibly the US also) put the oil change interval up to 15k km on the 30series camrys,up from 10k to cheapen the TCO,and to remain competitive in the marketing game versus other manufacturers. What happened? They started losing engines and paying for them under warranty when they started gunking up and spinning bearings. That would have hurt their bottom line and in the dealership we were told to go back to recommending a 10k km interval... The gamble with reliability vs marketing didn't pay off in that case.
The gearbox is a mechanical part and it wears. the fluid is going to suffer. You cannot escape that fact and like it or not,there is no magical fluid out there that can last indefinitely.
If you drive the car hard,it needs to be changed. If you want the car to last,it has to be changed. If you're the manufacturer,it just has to last a bit beyond the end of the warranty period.
Do your own cost analysis. does a new gearbox cost less than a fluid flush? No? Quandry solved,change the oil.
Justin...
Last edited by fergo308; 10-08-10 at 03:25 PM. Reason: typo...
The following users liked this post:
stuckincal (10-05-19)
11-13-10, 12:17 PM
#34
Rookie
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if Lexus says wait until 100k for transmission service, does anybody know WHAT (procedure-wise) is done at that point? You can change the fluid, but what about the filter?!? After 100k, that thing can't be working very efficiently anymore. Do they change the filter at that time?
11-17-10, 07:43 AM
#35
LS-430 Tranny Fluid/Filter
So if Lexus says wait until 100k for transmission service, does anybody know WHAT (procedure-wise) is done at that point? You can change the fluid, but what about the filter?!? After 100k, that thing can't be working very efficiently anymore. Do they change the filter at that time?
03-14-11, 05:23 PM
#37
I'd suggest you get it changed with the appropriate fluid specified in the owner's manual. It is probably Type III or Type IV Toyota Transmission Fluid. You didn't mention how long it's been since you changed it, or how many miles are on the car. The WS Fluid (World Standard) is for later model LS Models according to my Lexus Tech.
Good luck.
Good luck.
03-14-11, 09:23 PM
#38
Right. Unfortunately, he's correct for an LS430 from MY 2004 - 2006. They're filled with Toyota WS ATF at the factory and they're not intended to be serviced. The T-IV fluid found in previous model years definitely requires service.
Some units, like those found in the 2IS cars don't have a heat exchanger in the radiator - they actually run coolant all the way to the gearbox, so you couldn't change the fluid no matter how much you'd like to unless you remove the pan, and this only changes 2 liters of an 9 liter system. Hardly worth the effort.
Add to this a rather PITA procedure for setting the fluid level after you've monkeyed with the thing Lexus very specifically says to leave alone, and it's even LESS worth the hassle.
So, if you want to persist on changing your oil every 3k miles and your ATF every 30k because it worked in dad's '57 Chevy, be my guest. I'll follow the engineer's recommendations (not the tech's recommendations after a few beers at the bar) because the guy who designed, built, and tested the unit probably knows a whole lot more about the gearbox than the tech who is working on it.
I haven't owned 30 cars in the last 10 years. I'm not running a used car lot. I have however done a lot of work on motorcycles, cars, and aircraft. I'm also one of a very few Supra owners who has rebuilt his own Getrag.
I'll take Lexus's word for it. It a lifetime fill.
And yes, the 2IS forum argued all the same arguments I've seen here.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...-and-fill.html
Some units, like those found in the 2IS cars don't have a heat exchanger in the radiator - they actually run coolant all the way to the gearbox, so you couldn't change the fluid no matter how much you'd like to unless you remove the pan, and this only changes 2 liters of an 9 liter system. Hardly worth the effort.
Add to this a rather PITA procedure for setting the fluid level after you've monkeyed with the thing Lexus very specifically says to leave alone, and it's even LESS worth the hassle.
So, if you want to persist on changing your oil every 3k miles and your ATF every 30k because it worked in dad's '57 Chevy, be my guest. I'll follow the engineer's recommendations (not the tech's recommendations after a few beers at the bar) because the guy who designed, built, and tested the unit probably knows a whole lot more about the gearbox than the tech who is working on it.
I haven't owned 30 cars in the last 10 years. I'm not running a used car lot. I have however done a lot of work on motorcycles, cars, and aircraft. I'm also one of a very few Supra owners who has rebuilt his own Getrag.
I'll take Lexus's word for it. It a lifetime fill.
And yes, the 2IS forum argued all the same arguments I've seen here.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/is-...-and-fill.html
The following users liked this post:
stuckincal (10-05-19)
03-15-11, 12:03 AM
#39
Driver
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: IL
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
its common knowledge at any tranny shop that a fluid change can ruin the trans. That is why lexus doesnt reccomend it, even my 2002 with type 4 fluid says dont change it in the manual.
if theres 100 cars and a fluid change makes 3 break, and they wouldve all kept going then it a bad plan.
if theres 100 cars and a fluid change makes 3 break, and they wouldve all kept going then it a bad plan.
Last edited by svlexus; 03-15-11 at 12:07 AM.
03-15-11, 07:41 AM
#41
ES models probably should have the tranny fluid changed every 20,000 or so, or whatever your "Trusted" Dealership says. The LS-430's I'm talking about do not even have tranny fluid dipsticks.
03-17-11, 03:25 PM
#42
Rookie
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well the cars got 154k on it, I'm aware that it needs Dex3 type fluid. I 've owned it for about 3 years now & i don't have any record of when the fluid was last changed. Currently the fluid is dark and has a burnt smell to it.
03-17-11, 04:21 PM
#43
I think Type IV replaced type III. Yes, It probably needs changing, but good luck if it's never been changed.
03-19-11, 02:48 AM
#44
For the sake of your transmission (and pocket book) I would stick with Toyota Type IV Transmission fluid. We can just squeeze a penny so hard until we don't get the needed "juice" out of it any longer. Stick with the "Real Stuff" and I think you will have better peace of mind.
03-19-11, 02:51 AM
#45
Good luck.
The following users liked this post:
stuckincal (10-05-19)
