Neofate

iTrader: (1)

Well I'm coming to the slow conclusion that I might have a slight Headgasket leak. Internally as far as I know, that is very slow. IE: I haven't noticed coolant leaking from the reservoir, but it might be at a extremely slow pace.

But major symptom,.. On startup and for 10Minutes (sometimes longer) it will smoke somewhat lightly (even at 80degree's outside) out of the exhaust. This smoke is White.. and has a strong smell. I can't tell what the smell is but it is very strong,.. It doesn't 'stink' like crap heh.. but it smells like a strong chemical. Of course there is gas mixed in there, so I've been flip flopping with the idea it is a rich condition or a HG leak. I'm still not sure, but I tend to lean towards the HG obviously.

When driving I don't seem smoke plumes coming from the back of my car because when the pressure is coming out of the exhaust it masks the small amount of smoke,.. or perhaps it changes it somehow, (I can't see the exhaust tips when I'm driving down the road of course, just looking out the side mirrors).

It is also a bit random. There are days when I start it up and I don't see the smoke.

Then also, I'll start it up sometimes and it doesn't smoke for like 20 seconds, then it starts.

Some startups its like whatever it is has built up -- and is a large smoke, sometimes very very light.

--Before anyone suggests -- I've Plugged my ACV on the PS pump. It is not possible for PS fluid to be leaking into the intake any longer.

Otherwise, it drives perfect, notice no idle problems or cruising problems.

Sooo.. I've been looking into the Bar's leak -- They have a new product out now that doesn't require any draining/refilling.

Not sure if this is at Walmart or Adv. auto parts -- but I think this new version would be a better bet than the typical if I'm going to use it.

However, you hear horror stories about everything, and then you hear (I've put it in 4 yrs ago and it stopped the leak and it still runs fine, no smoke, no coolant loss).

So obviously my leak is small if it is a HG leak,.. so I *think* it would be the prime candidate for some solution like this, even if just temporary (several months).

I don't want to put something in that is going to wreck my radiator, heater core, water pump, thermostat, cylinder walls, etc etc --Like I see some people saying to some who ask about putting it in their radiators, while the next person says its perfectly fine, and worked for them.

So does it seem safe enough? Should I just not, and let the smoke continue.. as the Bar's would do more harm than good and isn't going to fix even a small leak?

I don't have the money to fix it at this moment,.. so I need to buy some time, but don't want to dig a deeper hole if possible -- Which is why I ask before I 'do'.

I guess best case, it actually works, and the smoke stops, and it lasts anywhere from a month to years .. Worst case (I hope) it just doesn' twork, and I'm still where I am right now.. no better no worse.



** Oh and on the 94 LS 400 -- Where would I add this? I can get to the Reservoir easy enough, but I've yet to see the Radiator cap,.. where is our Radiator cap? Am I just blind?


Let me know. (Just to note, the new formula claims it is compatible with our type of Coolant)

19psi

i dont know if i'd trust that stuff to not clog up everything else too....sounds great, but i wouldn't want to find out.
do a leakdown test and find out for sure if your hg is leaking. get all the info first so you can plan a course of action.

oh, there is no rad. cap. just the reservoir cap.

steveski

This may sound stupid but can't you do a compression test on each cylinder by removing the spark plug to see if one or more has lower numbers? You can rent a compression gauge from Auto Zone - just wondering before you add that stuff

Neofate

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I know some people are very skeptical of these products,.. I am too. Otherwise it would be in the coolant right now , I wouldn't ask your thoughts.

I called two other stop leak companies and talked to the reps, asked them is it possible or likely their stop leak would cause damage to my heater core, thermostat, clog lines and so on. They were all evasive and basically ended up you can choose to try the product at your own risk or not.

Then I called Bar's.. expecting the same type of answer. But I was wrong, they started explaining all this mumbo jumbo of how this 'new' product worked.. Apparently it hasn't been out that long.. and how the former product required a full drain of the coolant and so forth. That was great and all,.. but I asked about causing other problems. They didn't evade it, they said the way this is forumulated it has zero chance of damaging or clogging as I put it any other components. I was like "But how can it target one area and not the others.. it is just a chemical that reacts right?" -- They explained about how at the combustion cylinder the temperature is the catalyst to activate the product to seal. Otherwise it has additives in it that simple pass through the other areas of the coolant system. I asked what the additives were and they said they conditioned seals/gaskets/heatercore and waterpump. Allowing for relief of those problems if any exist.. ie: Stick t-stats, and other such I imagine.

Now, it is still at 'my risk' -- But I do feel a bit better about this product.

Though back to the question at hand,.. is it my HG?

I really don't see how it could be anything else. To be honest.

A rich condition would be dark smoke -- At least a little grey.. This is white as you can get. Rich would smell completely like gasoline,.. this has a gas but unique smell too it. Which can only be coolant mixed in with the unburnt gas.

I know uncommonly rich conditions can be white,.. but apparently it takes a severely rich condition to cause white smoke instead of the black that is the color fuel burns at. Just putting likely factors together I am strongly leaning this way.

Combine that with the opinion that I think this new product (and the older ones as well) are safe , even if it doesn't do anything.. I don't have much to lose.

Now if I thought this was going to clog up other systems, I wouldn't dare -- But I really believe Bar's with their science on this new product.. I've also been reading some reports of people who used it and it worked. I'm talking serious HG leaks, and it worked for them.. The old formula is much easier to run across on stories of success.. Which for those, there are many who are 50,60, 100k later and no leaks. I have found one story of someone who tried the 'pellets' and it just didn't stop their leak. But not any story of using the new product that is $30 that caused any trouble. Nor have I found any that even used the Copper (liquid glass) forumula that required drain/flush/use the Copper/then refill that it messed with any of the other systems.

In fact I found one guy who used it on his race engine because he was ready to tear it down, and it worked 30minutes before a drag race.. lol.

Then another who had like 3 different cooling issues and no one could find the reason,.. so he used the Copper and they were all magically resolved.

Yeah I know, don't believe everything you read/hear. But I think if there is any possible mechanic in a bottle,.. The Bar's products, mainly this one and potentially the Copper system are as close as you can get.

I think alot of people use other brands of generic radiator/coolant stop leaks and have the heater core clogging, and other problems because of the way they are formulated as a mass fix that not only tries to plug the problem but plugs everything else it comes into contact with as well. They group the Bar's product in the same category and automatically assume.

And we all know how one or two negative stories get played out in the public. For instance Seafoam and the fouling plugs -- Even on this forum people often say they are getting spark plugs for sea-foam (I did when I first was doing it),.. because of the post that said it would foul the plugs. Which is theoretically possible, but as we have found through experience is unlikely.

As you can tell, I really want to try this -- but I've got to get a hold of my experimenting mind and make sure it is 100% a HG problem before I 'risk' it.

The only thing is, the leak is about as small as they come. So, I don't even know if I can tell if I drained all the oil.. (Which I seriously don't want to do). I definitely don't think pulling the oil cap will show me anything, or the dipstick.

Now, the exhaust gas in the coolant,.. Does any size leak report a positive on that? If so -- I can drive down to adv. auto parts in a little while and get that tester and if postive, buy the product. If negative, then back to square one.

I was thinking, maybe I need to pour a little coolant out and burn it to get a good sense of the smell -- But burning it with a flame isn't quite the same as 5000degree's in a combustion chamber. You think burning a dab of coolant would smell the same? IE: Would give me an indication where I could determine if this smoke is coolant or not?

I'm going to go check out the coolant level now, and the oil cap and dipstick to see if I see any signs.. will report back.

Oh and Steveski: The removing the plugs for compression test is a crazy hassle -- Getting to the plugs isn't just reaching in, as you know, it takes a good bit of removal to get at them. If there is a tester that I stick in the reservoir, that would be the way to go, no?

We all know HG leaks are not common on this engine, which is partly why everyone is doubting a HG leak -- So I will proceed with caution. Though I do appreciate all your advice and ideas,.. (Though I don't need any obvious "Don't use that crap man, its risky, it can blow up your engine" responses -- I understand the risk at hand,.. and also the benefits if I am right. )

Again though, I won't be using anything till a 100% diagnosis.

turbosix

....not sure what your definition of hassle is, but getting to the plugs on a 1ls is a 5 minute job, if that.

Neofate

iTrader: (1)

Takes under 5 minutes for spark plugs on the 1st gen LS? I have taken a glimpse at LexLS and it sure doesn't look like its a 200-300 second job. I'm not talking a weekend or anything, but an hour or so it seems. I'll have another look though.

I just went and looked at some things.

The coolant is not low,.. So makes me wonder --

I pulled the cap off oil and couldn't tell anything.

Dipstick can't tell.

I started the car,.. and it took about 20-30seconds then it started to smoke.

I put my hand in front of the exhaust tip about 2inches away, and it directed the smoke up to the bumper. It immediately hazed it over, condensated on it.

I left my hand there for a minute or so, and I had liquid on my hand,.. it condensated over my hand.. so definitely a wet something.

But it isn't a total fuel smell.. I locked the Accel. at 1500rpms after it heated up and watched.. It still smoke at such an RPM.. So apparently while I'm driving I'm driving a smoking car. Great =/

I let it go for 10-15minutes and the smoke never stopped.

It is constant, about the consistency of a cigarette smoking drifting away.. Maybe a little less after the initial 30 seconds or so..

Any thoughts? A constant smoke like that would make that reservoir go down somewhat don't you think?

Though conversely an overly rich condition would result in poor gas mileage.. And I recently got over 500 on a tank.. like 25-27 mpg.

I'm thinking Cats.. as a potential.. but they smell rotten if they are going bad.. and it isn't a rotten smell.

I simply don't want to be driving around in a smoking vehicle,.. and now I have no idea why it is doing it. I really brag on the Lexus LS 400 for its reliability, but maybe over 200k just isn't a real workable idea.

19psi

do the leakdown test. if you have blown hg, you will get bubbles in your coolant as you do the test.
you're right, plugs aren't 5 minutes. the drivers side is easy to get to but still takes more than 5 minutes unless you're trying to set a record or soemthing.
passenger side requires more time since the air intake pipes nad hoses must be removed to access the plug cover.

steveski

Didn't think the plugs were a PITA - (since I haven't done it myself). I am however scheduling it later this Summer so I will get a lesson first hand. Bummer of an issue - always thought a leaking head gasket would cause smoke of course and additionally a loss of power, MPG, etc. The leak down test sounds liike it is the easier way to go at this time though.

paradox

Just curious..... did you notice this from day 1 of owning your car or is it a condition that developed over its ownership period? I'm dead serious, every single (8-cylinder) Lexus and Infinity that I've ever tested smoked at startup.... It's like a thick water vapor irregardless of outside temperature. When I bought my first LS years ago, I literally had the sales guy start up all the preowned 3rd gen LS' and they all had the white vapor while idling, because I was concerned about this exact perceived problem. Every Lexus I've owned does this too, but once I start driving (except in colder weather) the smoke? vapor? dissipates and eventually stops altogether. Not saying you don't have a valid issue, but I would first have the dealership or a qualified technician check out your car and make possible recommendations, before adding a foreign substance into it. FWIW, whenever I have a concern and take my car into the local dealership, if there's no issue I never get charged for the examination.
I would be interested in knowing what the outcome of this is.

Neofate

iTrader: (1)

I know the problem should be causing significant problems -- I don't get it. Which is why I say if its a HG , then it is VERY minor. Because the coolant hasn't budged,.. I really don't know.

Anyhow -- I went ahead and made a video about 6mins long (all the digital camera would do) with poor sound to maybe give you a better idea.

Keep in mind this is at 320resolution.. Terrible -- So the smoke is nearly impossible to see, but you can at times.

Also, when I bring the camera into the engine compartment it sounds like the engine is about to blow up -- That is the mic on the camera I guess,.. I listened to the video playback and the engine does not sound anything like that -- It is much quieter. So that sound is of no value.

Big thing with this video -- Lots of condensation, you will see.

Revving the engine actually blows a considerable amount of what looks like water and black soot onto the garage door panel. That isn't normal imo.

The smoke is constant now though,.. can be very light obviously, but I thought it was just a startup deal, but upon further investigation it looks like it is always smoking to some degree. Sometimes where you just can't notice it.


Video is compressed via Divx, and Youtube compresses it even more.. -- You might see some semblence of a vehicle, or just a blob

I'm letting the car cool down now, so maybe I can get some more impressive smoke, I will video that if it occurs,..

I had the car in the garage with the door almost all the way down because the sun made it impossible to see the smoke.

Now if only camera's could send you the smell... hrmm.

http://www.youtube.com/v/7wTV2f82Ggw

Neofate

iTrader: (1)

No I didn't notice this from day one,.. but not too soon after ownership I noticed it.. at first passed it off as vapor from temperatures,.. But the constant nature has my curiosity and worry peaked here.

As you see in the video at 70+degree's it smokes.

This is after 20-25minutes of the car running.. Not just on startup. I thought it was just startup, but I've never sat there and watched it like I did today,.. it just doesn't stop. It gets thicker and then thins out to almost nothing, but keeps flowing at some rate.

The reason I thought it was just startup, is because on startup (cold overnight start) it will smoke 3 or 4times this amount and then I just drive off. While I'm driving I don't notice the smoke,.. I don't notice it at stoplights and such.. But the other day after a 10minute drive to a fast food place, I did notice it smoking while idle in the line. I was like hrmm..

Thing is the coolant isn't dropping, and if it is , it is VERY slowly, so slow that I cannot tell the difference over several weeks time.

The oil level is fine,.. PS is impossible now because the ACV is plugged. There is no other fluid to be introduced but those.

Also I've owned the car about 2 months now,.. so it isn't like this developed over a year or two, .. The problem was there when I bought it I'm positive. I haven't driven the car hard, and it has not heated up whatsoever. I am as confused as the next guy on this.

I understand a startup then a minute or two later it stopping, but this doesn't.. and is why I am trying to get to the bottom of it.

The video is just to show the intensitiy of it after the car is at maximum temperature and has been driven a while. (I had it started for 15minutes just before I ran it for 25minutes before that video started.. ) So it was a good 30-40minutes of idle and some revving, and you saw the smoke come out after that first rev I did.. it was coming out the rest of the time but the quality is so poor it is just so hard to tell.

What is up with my cats? Most LS's don't spit that kind of water do they? No way that is normal for it to spit that kind of water on a rev all the time. If it was, cars would have big black soot water spots all over their front bumpers..

So something is making an overproduction of water, maybe that is a clue? You tell me

If you guys want some other test with the video, I'll make whatever will help.

I don't think this is a major problem where it has to be in a shop this second or the engine is going to blow up, but I shouldn't ignore it either.

As for the foreign substance.. No that idea is on the backburner for now. Since I'm just not convinced it is my headgasket because of the coolant level in reservoir being exactly where I filled it to weeks ago. Though I have the mark now on level ground to accurately monitor even minute changes/drops.

Thanks

bigste

OK Neo lets go through the logic. First thing is that it is not steering fluid cause it is plugged. If it's water vapour coming out it is getting water from somewhere. Is it coolant? You say there is no noticable loss of coolant so that is out as you would definately need to top it up.
There is only two things left. The oil pan and I doubt it's that cos you won't have been tipping water in the oil filler. The only other place the engine can get water is from the fuel tank. It is possible you have some water in the fuel tank. There is no other way that water can get in the engine and it needs water to put out water vapour.
If you think about it logically you have the answer. Use up the fuel then drain the tank. Water will always remain at the bottom of the tank as it is heavier than petrol. If you get heavy rain it's possible the gas station has water in their tanks. Let us know how you get on.

PureDrifter

iTrader: (10)

neo, the headgasket is fine.

move on

tallman316

isn't there a product out there like *Heet* that gets rid of water/condensation in the tank by making it evaporate? or am I wrong?

Zoraone

Every type of internal combustion engine produces water as a byproduct. This is in the form of condensation.

Some vehicles will actually drip water out of the exhaust, others will emit water vapor for long periods of time.

My LS400 does it, my GTO does it, my Z28 does it.