box Q continued...
12-10-02, 12:56 AM
#1
Driver
Thread Starter
box Q continued...
"Uhhh when it's a square wave, the speaker isn't moving."
A clipped signal IS a square wave, and you're somewhat proving my point. During the peaks of the signal the sub ISN'T moving, but the VC is getting power.Thus, overheating can occur.
"I think I know enough and don't need to prove it, if you want, why don't you give us your credentials so we would have some kind of reason to believe what you are saying."
Credentials? I've been a member of caraudioforum, termpro, elitecaraudio, soundillusions, sounddomainm and carsound for three years and have ~3k posts combined. But that really means nothing considering that you've been here for a while and have 150 posts, yet you are giving false information.
"All you've done here is to confuse Lvangundy beyond any reasonable means. This is why I had to post, normally I don't get involved in this stuff. I just can't stand idly by when you are misleading someone with incorrect information."
Fine. LV, listen to them. It really doesn't matter though, that JBL can handle the 2 ohm load that it WILL see with those two subs wired in parallel, but it will also put out the same power at the 1 ohm load that everyone else THINKS it will see.
A clipped signal IS a square wave, and you're somewhat proving my point. During the peaks of the signal the sub ISN'T moving, but the VC is getting power.Thus, overheating can occur.
"I think I know enough and don't need to prove it, if you want, why don't you give us your credentials so we would have some kind of reason to believe what you are saying."
Credentials? I've been a member of caraudioforum, termpro, elitecaraudio, soundillusions, sounddomainm and carsound for three years and have ~3k posts combined. But that really means nothing considering that you've been here for a while and have 150 posts, yet you are giving false information.
"All you've done here is to confuse Lvangundy beyond any reasonable means. This is why I had to post, normally I don't get involved in this stuff. I just can't stand idly by when you are misleading someone with incorrect information."
Fine. LV, listen to them. It really doesn't matter though, that JBL can handle the 2 ohm load that it WILL see with those two subs wired in parallel, but it will also put out the same power at the 1 ohm load that everyone else THINKS it will see.
12-10-02, 02:07 AM
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Baba,
I have been in Car Audio for 10+ years, no longer active. However, I don't stack up to and would never stand next to Mr. Doublewoosh. When I was trying to compete on a national level more than 10 years ago, Todd was king. He has more national sound competition titles that anyone I have ever had the opportunity to meet. He now owns a top end corporation that produces many of the state of the art manufacturer demo vehicles from many brand of equipment you see in your local stores. Yes, he IS the real deal.
Your membership in this forum is appreciated and welcomed. Please do not square off with the professors, it makes for an uglyness that the owners of this forum do not appreciate.
I feel that this thread can be closed, as the issue has been resolved and time to move forward. No need to knock heads, we are ALL trying to help others out.
No hard feelings, and I hope you can be a part of this forum in the future. I think you have a lot to offer and knowledge that makes this place a great resource.
MW
I have been in Car Audio for 10+ years, no longer active. However, I don't stack up to and would never stand next to Mr. Doublewoosh. When I was trying to compete on a national level more than 10 years ago, Todd was king. He has more national sound competition titles that anyone I have ever had the opportunity to meet. He now owns a top end corporation that produces many of the state of the art manufacturer demo vehicles from many brand of equipment you see in your local stores. Yes, he IS the real deal.
Your membership in this forum is appreciated and welcomed. Please do not square off with the professors, it makes for an uglyness that the owners of this forum do not appreciate.
I feel that this thread can be closed, as the issue has been resolved and time to move forward. No need to knock heads, we are ALL trying to help others out.
No hard feelings, and I hope you can be a part of this forum in the future. I think you have a lot to offer and knowledge that makes this place a great resource.
MW
Last edited by pcmw; 12-10-02 at 02:08 AM.
12-10-02, 08:53 AM
#3
Driver
Thread Starter
12-10-02, 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by BabaBooey
http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials/wiring/2svc.html
http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials/wiring/2svc.html
The load on the amplifier is 2 ohms, but when bridged, each channel "sees" exactly one-half the net load measured at the amplifier's terminals.
Thanks
MW
12-10-02, 01:42 PM
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You are hell bent on describing a straight DC signal to the sub. When the amp clips, the signal is not pure DC...the wave is cut off at max output and its pushing a TON of distortion...there are harmonics involved...you can't get a pure sin wave unless you're playing test tones...
Some say this is what destroys the sub, some say its actually the compression of the harmonics at this high output...its hard to say...but just because the wave is "square" doesn't mean your pushing a purely DC signal. You're still pushing harmonics, but at the full power of the amp...
The funny thing about all of this, is that you are both arguing about symantics.
If the sub is 2 ohm mono, then the amp will always be presented with a 2 ohm mono load. There is no getting around this period...however, what it "see's" will up to how the amp is being run. If bridged, even if it is being presented with a 2 ohm sub load, it might "see" a 1 ohm mono load...
It's all in the English and how you decide to interpret it.
Tim
Some say this is what destroys the sub, some say its actually the compression of the harmonics at this high output...its hard to say...but just because the wave is "square" doesn't mean your pushing a purely DC signal. You're still pushing harmonics, but at the full power of the amp...
The funny thing about all of this, is that you are both arguing about symantics.
If the sub is 2 ohm mono, then the amp will always be presented with a 2 ohm mono load. There is no getting around this period...however, what it "see's" will up to how the amp is being run. If bridged, even if it is being presented with a 2 ohm sub load, it might "see" a 1 ohm mono load...
It's all in the English and how you decide to interpret it.
Tim
12-10-02, 01:48 PM
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Re: box Q continued...
Originally posted by BabaBooey
"Uhhh when it's a square wave, the speaker isn't moving."
A clipped signal IS a square wave, and you're somewhat proving my point. During the peaks of the signal the sub ISN'T moving, but the VC is getting power.Thus, overheating can occur.
"I think I know enough and don't need to prove it, if you want, why don't you give us your credentials so we would have some kind of reason to believe what you are saying."
Credentials? I've been a member of caraudioforum, termpro, elitecaraudio, soundillusions, sounddomainm and carsound for three years and have ~3k posts combined. But that really means nothing considering that you've been here for a while and have 150 posts, yet you are giving false information.
"All you've done here is to confuse Lvangundy beyond any reasonable means. This is why I had to post, normally I don't get involved in this stuff. I just can't stand idly by when you are misleading someone with incorrect information."
Fine. LV, listen to them. It really doesn't matter though, that JBL can handle the 2 ohm load that it WILL see with those two subs wired in parallel, but it will also put out the same power at the 1 ohm load that everyone else THINKS it will see.
"Uhhh when it's a square wave, the speaker isn't moving."
A clipped signal IS a square wave, and you're somewhat proving my point. During the peaks of the signal the sub ISN'T moving, but the VC is getting power.Thus, overheating can occur.
"I think I know enough and don't need to prove it, if you want, why don't you give us your credentials so we would have some kind of reason to believe what you are saying."
Credentials? I've been a member of caraudioforum, termpro, elitecaraudio, soundillusions, sounddomainm and carsound for three years and have ~3k posts combined. But that really means nothing considering that you've been here for a while and have 150 posts, yet you are giving false information.
"All you've done here is to confuse Lvangundy beyond any reasonable means. This is why I had to post, normally I don't get involved in this stuff. I just can't stand idly by when you are misleading someone with incorrect information."
Fine. LV, listen to them. It really doesn't matter though, that JBL can handle the 2 ohm load that it WILL see with those two subs wired in parallel, but it will also put out the same power at the 1 ohm load that everyone else THINKS it will see.
Tim
12-10-02, 04:28 PM
#7
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Tim,
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TimDimman
[B]You are hell bent on describing a straight DC signal to the sub. When the amp clips, the signal is not pure DC...the wave is cut off at max output and its pushing a TON of distortion...there are harmonics involved...you can't get a pure sin wave unless you're playing test tones...
***Very true! To prove this point, just hook up an output from a source (music or spoken voice) to an oscilloscope. No pure sine waves there - just a mish mash of harmonics all over the place.***
Some say this is what destroys the sub, some say its actually the compression of the harmonics at this high output...its hard to say...but just because the wave is "square" doesn't mean your pushing a purely DC signal. You're still pushing harmonics, but at the full power of the amp...
***Square or clipped? DC in pure form usually means a straightline on the oscilloscope above the ground (Zero volt) reference that's representive of the dc voltage being put in. That's my experience of "pure dc" anyways. If it's a clipped signal then you'll still get the same "mish mash" of harmonics, just with the tops of the waveform chopped off. Hmmm..now that I think about it, square and clipped can apply to the same thing.***
The funny thing about all of this, is that you are both arguing about symantics.
***Good thing this is the Lexus board ... could get much uglier on the other boards!
***
Percy
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TimDimman
[B]You are hell bent on describing a straight DC signal to the sub. When the amp clips, the signal is not pure DC...the wave is cut off at max output and its pushing a TON of distortion...there are harmonics involved...you can't get a pure sin wave unless you're playing test tones...
***Very true! To prove this point, just hook up an output from a source (music or spoken voice) to an oscilloscope. No pure sine waves there - just a mish mash of harmonics all over the place.***
Some say this is what destroys the sub, some say its actually the compression of the harmonics at this high output...its hard to say...but just because the wave is "square" doesn't mean your pushing a purely DC signal. You're still pushing harmonics, but at the full power of the amp...
***Square or clipped? DC in pure form usually means a straightline on the oscilloscope above the ground (Zero volt) reference that's representive of the dc voltage being put in. That's my experience of "pure dc" anyways. If it's a clipped signal then you'll still get the same "mish mash" of harmonics, just with the tops of the waveform chopped off. Hmmm..now that I think about it, square and clipped can apply to the same thing.***
The funny thing about all of this, is that you are both arguing about symantics.
***Good thing this is the Lexus board ... could get much uglier on the other boards!
***Percy
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12-10-02, 04:35 PM
#8
Moderator - Electronics Forum
Re: Re: box Q continued...
Tim,
Fortunately there are only two that are on my ****** list for being uppity. Good old E. Zausmer and anything by Navon* Engin**ring. Or anyone that has the attitude of claiming they "invented" car audio. They're "has beens" and let's learn from them of what NOT to do, especially in their terms of attitude and ego.
We're all here to learn from each other. Let's try to keep it civilized. Hopefully I won't have to lock threads anytime soon...
Percy
Fortunately there are only two that are on my ****** list for being uppity. Good old E. Zausmer and anything by Navon* Engin**ring. Or anyone that has the attitude of claiming they "invented" car audio. They're "has beens" and let's learn from them of what NOT to do, especially in their terms of attitude and ego.
We're all here to learn from each other. Let's try to keep it civilized. Hopefully I won't have to lock threads anytime soon...
Percy
Originally posted by TimDimman
Get away from CarAudioForum and EliteCarAudio...the whole "elitest" attitude doesn't work here. We drive Lexus's...we're not suppose to argue like we're on grammar school grounds.
Tim
Get away from CarAudioForum and EliteCarAudio...the whole "elitest" attitude doesn't work here. We drive Lexus's...we're not suppose to argue like we're on grammar school grounds.
Tim
12-10-02, 06:50 PM
#9
Lexus Test Driver
Originally posted by Percy
***Good thing this is the Lexus board ... could get much uglier on the other boards! ***
Percy
***Good thing this is the Lexus board ... could get much uglier on the other boards!
***Percy
Yes, luckily no details required in here
Sharing too much information never really does any good anyways from what I've seen, it only confuses those who "think" they know. Vague, cryptic advice is best in my experience
As long as the right general advice is given it's good enough
Hey now, didn't Earl Z invent high end car audio? He used to call me at HOME all the time to tell me about it (duh).
My first run-in with him was at the Masters Invitational in Stone Mountain Georgia. We had brought the Legend and Thunderbird out there and caused all kind of commotion, since back then nobody really transported cars that far for shows. Of course here's some guy named Earl blabbing and blabbing like I've never heard anyone blab before. Mark Fukuda and I were both like...WTF where did this guy come from?!?! Who the hell is he?!?! Of course he got completely obliterated in the process...
Just thought you might like that story since you like Earl so much...
12-10-02, 06:57 PM
#10
Lexus Test Driver
Originally posted by pcmw
Baba,
I have been in Car Audio for 10+ years, no longer active. However, I don't stack up to and would never stand next to Mr. Doublewoosh. When I was trying to compete on a national level more than 10 years ago, Todd was king. He has more national sound competition titles that anyone I have ever had the opportunity to meet. He now owns a top end corporation that produces many of the state of the art manufacturer demo vehicles from many brand of equipment you see in your local stores. Yes, he IS the real deal.
Your membership in this forum is appreciated and welcomed. Please do not square off with the professors, it makes for an uglyness that the owners of this forum do not appreciate.
I feel that this thread can be closed, as the issue has been resolved and time to move forward. No need to knock heads, we are ALL trying to help others out.
No hard feelings, and I hope you can be a part of this forum in the future. I think you have a lot to offer and knowledge that makes this place a great resource.
MW
Baba,
I have been in Car Audio for 10+ years, no longer active. However, I don't stack up to and would never stand next to Mr. Doublewoosh. When I was trying to compete on a national level more than 10 years ago, Todd was king. He has more national sound competition titles that anyone I have ever had the opportunity to meet. He now owns a top end corporation that produces many of the state of the art manufacturer demo vehicles from many brand of equipment you see in your local stores. Yes, he IS the real deal.
Your membership in this forum is appreciated and welcomed. Please do not square off with the professors, it makes for an uglyness that the owners of this forum do not appreciate.
I feel that this thread can be closed, as the issue has been resolved and time to move forward. No need to knock heads, we are ALL trying to help others out.
No hard feelings, and I hope you can be a part of this forum in the future. I think you have a lot to offer and knowledge that makes this place a great resource.
MW
Hopefully no more controversy arises in here, it's usually nice and quiet in this section of the forum...
Last edited by DoubleWhoosh; 12-10-02 at 11:11 PM.
12-10-02, 09:06 PM
#11
Driver
Thread Starter
I'll be back in a little bit to respond. It's exam week so I'm pretty busy. But first of all, I posted the boards I frequent because I was asked for my credentials- honestly not much- but don't go about talking **** to me when I'm not the one who started this pissing contest.
Second of all, even if the individual channels see a 1 ohm load in this situation, statements like this are simply incorrect:
"Bridged takes the load to 1/2 what it would normally be.
Parallel resistence of the two woofers = 2ohms.
So your amp is at a 1ohm load."
He's speaking of a pair of 4 ohm subwoofers being wired in parallel. So listen to whomever you want, but this is audio at its most basic, so...
I'll be back sometime later, maybe tomorow, to go into a more detailed response.
Second of all, even if the individual channels see a 1 ohm load in this situation, statements like this are simply incorrect:
"Bridged takes the load to 1/2 what it would normally be.
Parallel resistence of the two woofers = 2ohms.
So your amp is at a 1ohm load."
He's speaking of a pair of 4 ohm subwoofers being wired in parallel. So listen to whomever you want, but this is audio at its most basic, so...
I'll be back sometime later, maybe tomorow, to go into a more detailed response.
12-10-02, 09:18 PM
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Re: Re: Re: box Q continued...
Originally posted by Percy
Tim,
Fortunately there are only two that are on my ****** list for being uppity. Good old E. Zausmer and anything by Navon* Engin**ring. Or anyone that has the attitude of claiming they "invented" car audio. They're "has beens" and let's learn from them of what NOT to do, especially in their terms of attitude and ego.
We're all here to learn from each other. Let's try to keep it civilized. Hopefully I won't have to lock threads anytime soon...
Percy
Tim,
Fortunately there are only two that are on my ****** list for being uppity. Good old E. Zausmer and anything by Navon* Engin**ring. Or anyone that has the attitude of claiming they "invented" car audio. They're "has beens" and let's learn from them of what NOT to do, especially in their terms of attitude and ego.
We're all here to learn from each other. Let's try to keep it civilized. Hopefully I won't have to lock threads anytime soon...
Percy
That was my attempt at a bit of humor...since the same things can be said on a home audio board...
Or any other board for that matter...It was an "I'm special because I drive a Lexus" kind of response...
Baba (or at least I think...) picks up my humor from other boards we surf at.
Anyways, obviously it was missed.
I've always loved how engineers can do calculus, but they can't do simple math...and believe me, my responses are far too humble to "think" I invented car audio...because everyone knows there's 3 things required in car audio...the car, and the audio.
Tim
Last edited by TimDimman; 12-10-02 at 09:38 PM.
12-10-02, 10:38 PM
#13
Moderator - Electronics Forum
DW,
Earl called you at HOME?!?! Isn't that a form of harassment? Heck, back in '96 he didn't say a thing about the system I had installed - pretty much what I have today. He would go on blabbing about how much better his HOME speakers were than the Dyns/Vel that were installed in my setup, with no real proof to back it up. Greatest day was when he decided to sell his Bimmer at "Kelly Blue Book" price.
As for the "inventor" of car audio...that honor DOES NOT go to Richard "he think he invented it" Clark. But I'm sure you know the story behind that one too!
Percy
Earl called you at HOME?!?! Isn't that a form of harassment?
Heck, back in '96 he didn't say a thing about the system I had installed - pretty much what I have today. He would go on blabbing about how much better his HOME speakers were than the Dyns/Vel that were installed in my setup, with no real proof to back it up. Greatest day was when he decided to sell his Bimmer at "Kelly Blue Book" price. As for the "inventor" of car audio...that honor DOES NOT go to Richard "he think he invented it" Clark. But I'm sure you know the story behind that one too!
Percy
Originally posted by DoubleWhoosh
LOL!
Yes, luckily no details required in here
Sharing too much information never really does any good anyways from what I've seen, it only confuses those who "think" they know. Vague, cryptic advice is best in my experience
As long as the right general advice is given it's good enough
Hey now, didn't Earl Z invent high end car audio? He used to call me at HOME all the time to tell me about it (duh).
My first run-in with him was at the Masters Invitational in Stone Mountain Georgia. We had brought the Legend and Thunderbird out there and caused all kind of commotion, since back then nobody really transported cars that far for shows. Of course here's some guy named Earl blabbing and blabbing like I've never heard anyone blab before. Mark Fukuda and I were both like...WTF where did this guy come from?!?! Who the hell is he?!?! Of course he got completely obliterated in the process...
Just thought you might like that story since you like Earl so much...
LOL!
Yes, luckily no details required in here
Sharing too much information never really does any good anyways from what I've seen, it only confuses those who "think" they know. Vague, cryptic advice is best in my experience
As long as the right general advice is given it's good enough
Hey now, didn't Earl Z invent high end car audio? He used to call me at HOME all the time to tell me about it (duh).
My first run-in with him was at the Masters Invitational in Stone Mountain Georgia. We had brought the Legend and Thunderbird out there and caused all kind of commotion, since back then nobody really transported cars that far for shows. Of course here's some guy named Earl blabbing and blabbing like I've never heard anyone blab before. Mark Fukuda and I were both like...WTF where did this guy come from?!?! Who the hell is he?!?! Of course he got completely obliterated in the process...
Just thought you might like that story since you like Earl so much...
12-10-02, 10:45 PM
#14
Guest
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Comical comical
Thanks for all the input and education.
Todd - why are you never at your office??
I'm going to pick up anotehr amp soon (more powerful of coursE) and try to reseal my sub box. I'd like to use some RAAM mat on the inside where the largest area of MDF is to reduce movement.
Thanks for all the input and education.
Todd - why are you never at your office??
I'm going to pick up anotehr amp soon (more powerful of coursE) and try to reseal my sub box. I'd like to use some RAAM mat on the inside where the largest area of MDF is to reduce movement.
Last edited by Lvangundy; 12-10-02 at 10:47 PM.