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I've posted in RAT's Q&A a few times. He's pretty cantankerous when you question him, and he moderates all questions and answers. I am not sure he actually knows a lot about engineering engines, but he is certainly opinionated and happy to share his opinions. I know he's very proud of his testing methodology for oils, but is completely unwilling to expose it to outside scrutiny. Many tribologists have expressed doubt about what he does mostly because he won't tell you anything about his testing methods. That's not a good sign of someone's openness to criticism and if you look at the Q&A section, you'll see many condescending replies to questions.
All that said, I have sent him two Renewable Lubricants oils for testing (SHP and HD), and they performed extremely well. His shipping address is a Mailboxes Etc. shop, so there is very little real world information about him available.
I’d like to hear Rafi’s thoughts on the rev limit. He has probably seen more 7200 rpm revs than anyone else here.
I haven’t seen any failures unless we can link the piston ringlands cracking to high revs. I’m not technical enough to know if that’s even a possibility.
If I could log into his blog in the Q & A session I would pose more questions for him to elaborate on concerning our discussion here, but I don't have Facebook or Twitter or Wordpress. I think those 3 ways are the only way you can log in to ask him a question or else I would. I'm curious as to what he could expound on in his own words and why he came to those conclusions.
BTW I'll check out those links you posted above
Just took another look at RAT's blog. He's as cantankerous as ever, spewing the same old condescending crap as always (bold is mine):
Hi again,
Since you are new to my Blog, I suggest that you read through my entire Blog, little by little as you get a chance. It contains a wealth of FACTUAL data that you cannot find anywhere else. I’ve discussed your 5W20 vs 5W30 question many times here in my Q&A Section. But, I’ll repeat that information here again since you obviously have not seen it.
When Automakers call for 5W20, it is inconsistent. Sometimes a given naturally aspirated engine calls for 5W20. But, when that engine tweaked with a turbo added, then they call for 5W30. In other cases, a given vehicle/engine combo calls for 5W20. But then, they say to switch to 5W30 for track days with that vehicle/engine combo. This bouncing around by Automakers can be very confusing to average drivers. And the reason they call for 5W20 is NOT an Engineering decision. It is a Marketing/Political decision, only intended to help Automakers meet Corporate Average Fuel Economy (C.A.F.E.) requirements. In Automaker computer monitored testing, they show a teeny tiny improvement in fuel economy. But, in the real world Owners cannot measure any difference in gas mileage between 5W20 and 5W30. 5W20 is NOT the best at anything. It is “thinner” than ideal, and would not even exist if not for major efforts to squeeze every last little bit of gas mileage out of vehicles.
The FACT is, 5W30 is THE IDEAL viscosity for most water-cooled, gasoline powered engines, big or small. Compared to 5W20, here are the primary reasons that “5W30” is BY FAR a much better choice:
– 5W30 provides much better engine protection than overly thin 5W20, especially when engines are run hard, and/or when they have power adders such as Turbo’s or Superchargers.
– 5W30 provides consistent hot oil pressure, where the overly thin 5W20 can sometimes generate such low hot oil pressure that it is a concern.
– 5W30 reduces or eliminates hot idle mechanical engine noises, where overly thin 5W20 promotes them.
– 5W30 can reduce or eliminate oil consumption, and oil leaks, where overly thin 5W20 promotes them.
I have recommended 5W30 for years, for most water-cooled, gasoline powered engines. But, Ford Motor Company for example, called for 5W20 for years and years, for most of their normal production vehicles. But, beginning in 2021 Ford changed to calling for 5W30 in their High Performance V-8 Mustangs. So, apparently Ford has been reading my Blog, or else they independently arrived at the same conclusion I did about 5W30 being the best choice. Either way, now Ford is on the same page with me. For years I have recommended to my Blog readers that they switch their 5W20 vehicles to the FAR BETTER 5W30. I practice what I preach. I changed 3 of my own vehicles that called for 5W20 to 5W30 some years ago. And those engines are all perfect. Countless numbers of my Blog readers have done the same thing. If you want to provide your engine with the best possible protection, I suggest that you also switch to one of the top ranked 5W30 motor oils on my Wear Protection Ranking List. Though of course, the number 1 oil is chosen most. The details on that are below.
*****
I have performed Engineering Torture Testing on motor oil, on more then 260 different oils, over the past 9 years. My testing is a friction test under load, at the normal operating engine temperature of 230*F. The results of this test, shows us the load carrying capability “limit” of each motor oil being tested. That limit, in psi, is what we compare between different motor oils. The HIGHER the psi value, the BETTER the wear protection. This is THE BEST motor oil performance Data you will find anywhere. You can only find this Data here in my Blog. And you can see my complete Wear Protection Ranking List, with all the psi values, right here in the body of my Blog. My Testing is 100% Scientific, where the results come completely from the Physics and Chemistry involved in the testing. With my Data, there is NO opinion, NO theory, NO speculation, NO guessing, and NO emotion involved, like you see on every completely worthless Internet Automotive and Motor Oil Forum. My Engineering Test results exactly match real world experience. And I have numerous examples of that throughout the body of my Blog. Of all the motor oils I have tested over the years, the latest 5W30 Quaker State, API SP, set an all-time High/Best record. It is THE BEST performing motor oil I have ever tested. It provides THE BEST wear protection of any motor oil on the market today. I use it in my stock AND High Performance engines. And I recommend it to all my Blog readers.
Take care,
540 RAT
So if all you care about is load capacity, pick the #1 oil and you'll be golden. Unless it doesn't manage fuel dilution well, or its viscosity modifiers fail in half the time of its competitors or...
There's more to oil performance than load test results with brand new oil. RAT ignores this completely and feels his load test is the ultimate arbiter of what an oil should be. I think he's very short sighted, especially when fuel dilution is a HUGE problem for the OE Lexus tune. Maybe one of our aftermarket tunes can eliminate the utterly ridiculous rich tune the factory gives us to prevent warranty claims, but I have no data to support or deny this assertion. It's also possible a proper lean tune won't have enough unburned fuel in it to make the cats work properly. It's all a symphony...
BTW, "it contains a wealth of FACTUAL data" is very highly debatable, and if you do a search for RAT on the web, you'll find some very qualifed people calling him stupid.
Last edited by lobuxracer; Apr 25, 2022 at 11:23 PM.
My short assumption is that he reasons on some things, but fails to reason on all things.
ILLWILLIAM did see some lower oil pressures on track. I wonder if 5w-30 would help… but I’m veering off topic.
I wish RAT were correct on the MPS, but his data suggests that our engine should survive around 8k, but we have some evidence to suggest that is not possible.
I think on this topic, we have to look at the evidence we have collectively.
1. There are many members and vastly more offsite that run 7200 rpm tunes, as RR has pumped them out for years.
2. Both tuners say it’s safe, and their track record would support that.
3. The pistons and head seem adequate to take the abuse. We aren’t seeing failures.
4. Does running anything harder increase wear? Yes. The question is how much? Since these engines seem good for 400k, it’s going to be pretty hard to tell, if ever.
5. Toyota doesn’t engineer anything close to its limits. It’s simply not their style. They built in a safety buffer, and higher revs seemingly gets into that buffer, but doesn’t seem to surpass it.
6. Benefits of high RPM?
The benefit is really the major question that we can focus on. There is a tune that doesn’t seem to drop much power at higher revs, but it certainly doesn’t make more power up there. So why not shift gears anyway? The only benefit I can discern is one less shift in the quarter mile. Outside of that, I personally think your running your car harder, but not seeing any better performance than oem shift points.
These cars create more heat closer to redline. If someone plans to spend a lot of time up there, they absolutely need to upgrade their oil cooler. Higher revs will lead to warmer oil and the potential damage that comes with it. If your just extending shifts at a drag strip, it’s probably not that important.
Just took another look at RAT's blog. He's as cantankerous as ever, spewing the same old condescending crap as always (bold is mine):
So if all you care about is load capacity, pick the #1 oil and you'll be golden. Unless it doesn't manage fuel dilution well, or its viscosity modifiers fail in half the time of its competitors or...
There's more to oil performance than load test results with brand new oil. RAT ignores this completely and feels his load test is the ultimate arbiter of what an oil should be. I think he's very short sighted, especially when fuel dilution is a HUGE problem for the OE Lexus tune. Maybe one of our aftermarket tunes can eliminate the utterly ridiculous rich tune the factory gives us to prevent warranty claims, but I have no data to support or deny this assertion. It's also possible a proper lean tune won't have enough unburned fuel in it to make the cats work properly. It's all a symphony...
BTW, "it contains a wealth of FACTUAL data" is very highly debatable, and if you do a search for RAT on the web, you'll find some very qualified people calling him stupid.
I have noticed that about his blog while reading through it. BTW I didn't hear or know about his blog until you mentioned it a few years ago and his ranking list made sense when it came to the load (film strength) of the tested oils. That being said do you still stand by his oil rankings list?
We do know from Daniel when he worked for that Tribology laboratory (don't remember exactly who he worked for?) that Renewable Lubricants manages fuel dilution very well, and Rat's Blog seemed to at least support the notion that a Bio Based oil can be as good if not better than a synthetic base stock oil for load strength (I think RL is currently ranked 11th @ 130,436 psi). For now all I have to go off of for picking the best oil for our motor is Rat's blog and UOA's. I'm not even going to get stared on BITOG forum as that is just as bad as discussing politics and religion with people 😑
That being said I haven't worried about the OE Lexus tune running rich now coming up on 6 years with the RR tune installed. Couple the tune with running 30-35% ethanol and my tune is pretty leaned out over the past 70k miles, so finding an oil to cope with fuel dilution hasn't been something I've been concerned about in my situation. But I have taken his advice and have been running Tribodyn oil for the past 2 oil changes and now that QSFS is at the top of his list I thought about switching over to that for my next oil change because of the price you can get it at Wallyworld. I will admit I haven't been good at sending samples to Blackstone for analysis so I can't offer much more in regards to how my UOA would've turned out.
Sorry for going off topic as this thread was about MPS😎
I won't dispute his rankings. He's pretty clear about these are test results with new oil using a proprietary testing method and they speak only to load capacity. Keep in mind the whole reason he started doing this was because he was having cams get flattened because the film strength of the oil he was using was inadequate. Wiping the lobes off a cam is not at all uncommon in two valve per cylinder single cam engines with tappets, pushrods, and rocker arms working against stiff springs intended to minimize valve float. Most cam grinders have detailed "break-in" instructions for their racing cam applications because of this and warranty for wiping the lobes can be a difficult proposition.
So the thing you can be certain will be true - you won't have a failure as a result of inadequate sliding friction with RAT's best tested oil. But that's all. Our engines don't have the same kind of issues because our valve actuation is completely different and presents a far smaller load to the oil film than a domestic single cam engine does. Fuel dilution is a MUCH bigger issue for our engines, and in that massive thread, I gave Daniel my complete Blackstone history and his expert called out fuel dilution as the key problem with my UOAs. I know why Toyota tunes very rich and it's consistent with their engineering philosophy and business model. It just causes fuel dilution. Keep in mind, your engine burns a very small amount of oil with every cycle. It is impossible to avoid this. So, if your oil level never drops, something has to be added to the oil in service to maintain the oil level. In our cars, that's fuel, and that fuel dilutes the load capacity of the oil. I run RLI specifically because it showed very good resistance to fuel dilution when I used Daniel's former employer's lab, Tribologik, to test RLI's results. I will continue to run this oil specifically because it's really good at solving the biggest problem our engines face with the factory tune.
Just wanted to add some information to this thread. My car has been Tuned by Loi for over a year now. I typically do quite a bit of 1/4 mile racing. We started off at 7200 redline. Later moved up to 7300, 7400, 7500 & 7600 RPM redline. Haven't encountered any sort of issues or problems at all. I'm running Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w-30 for the engine oil.
Also wanted to add my ISF has a 3.7 rear diff, engine oil and transmission oil coolers. Dyno chart below is in 5th gear.
Oil isn't the big issue for 10-12 second bursts at full power. Redline in these engines will be dictated by valve springs more than anything else, so what you're saying is the valves haven't floated sufficiently to be a problem with the tune(s) you are running. You really won't know what the oil impacts have been until you pull it apart and do some detective work.
Curious if loi just sells the transmission tune? have you ran into any issues like CEL etc?
Originally Posted by Positron
Just wanted to add some information to this thread. My car has been Tuned by Loi for over a year now. I typically do quite a bit of 1/4 mile racing. We started off at 7200 redline. Later moved up to 7300, 7400, 7500 & 7600 RPM redline. Haven't encountered any sort of issues or problems at all. I'm running Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w-30 for the engine oil.
Also wanted to add my ISF has a 3.7 rear diff, engine oil and transmission oil coolers. Dyno chart below is in 5th gear.
Curious if loi just sells the transmission tune? have you ran into any issues like CEL etc?
Originally Posted by Positron
Just wanted to add some information to this thread. My car has been Tuned by Loi for over a year now. I typically do quite a bit of 1/4 mile racing. We started off at 7200 redline. Later moved up to 7300, 7400, 7500 & 7600 RPM redline. Haven't encountered any sort of issues or problems at all. I'm running Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w-30 for the engine oil.
Also wanted to add my ISF has a 3.7 rear diff, engine oil and transmission oil coolers. Dyno chart below is in 5th gear.
That's an interesting proposition for Loi? I think a lot of F owners who already have RR Racings tune maybe just want the transmission tune to pair with it🤔
Someone should reach out to him and ask him if that's something he's willing to consider? It might open up some more business for him within the community
Oil isn't the big issue for 10-12 second bursts at full power. Redline in these engines will be dictated by valve springs more than anything else, so what you're saying is the valves haven't floated sufficiently to be a problem with the tune(s) you are running. You really won't know what the oil impacts have been until you pull it apart and do some detective work.
This. Valve Float. Is what I have just about always seen on stock car and bike engines that blew due to high RPM over Rev. Seems there is no definitive on it. One day they just let go. Tear it down and find out 1 Valve just let go and chunked metal all in. Even seen them go over rev'd on the Dyno.
In addition on the Dyno, being that cars and bikes shift, over revving past peak hp can get you out of the idea power shift point at shift, and get you out of a peak powerband. Basically you can overrev shift and essentially go slower on WOT from gear shift to gear shift. If you get out of that peak powerband shifts point.
That's an interesting proposition for Loi? I think a lot of F owners who already have RR Racings tune maybe just want the transmission tune to pair with it🤔
Someone should reach out to him and ask him if that's something he's willing to consider? It might open up some more business for him within the community
I highly doubt it, for many reasons.
But most importantly would be that engine & transmission work together as a symphony.
Don't forget we have VDIM which is quite complex.
Unless someone speaks fluent Japanese and manages to get a Novel ISF engine autopsy, it's hard for any of us to say exactly what happened to that car.
Do any of you know the mods on the car? The tune? The support mods? Oil? Fuel? Use? Etc
I think it's safe to say that we should probably look at upgraded valvetrain soon if we want to shoot for the moon.
As for the Loi Tune, it's not possible to get just the TCU portion done when the entire tune needs to be done together.
Just get Tuned by Loi, no pun intended.
