IS audio system overview
Thread Starter
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 243
Likes: 8
From: Kentucky
Originally Posted by undecided
What a thorough and detailed write-up. Thank you for your efforts.
It sounds like you don't like those door tweeters. What is your best low effort upgrade advice for the standard system? Should it be upgrade the door tweeters or the sub? Or is the sound balanced enough as it is?
It sounds like you don't like those door tweeters. What is your best low effort upgrade advice for the standard system? Should it be upgrade the door tweeters or the sub? Or is the sound balanced enough as it is?
I would upgrade the sub. A good sub set up in the correct box and powered correctly will make the system sound better than simply replacing the tweeters. I plan on installing a JL Audio 8W7 8" sub and a Kicker or Alpine amplifier rated at 300-400 watts.
For most people this will be all they need for an audiophile system. However I am more acustomed to extreme high-end car audio systems. My current plan is to replace the door speakers with a tweeter and midrange from a company called Scan-Speak. SS speakers are handbuilt in Denmark and are used in some of the most expensive high-end home speakers available. The tweeters cost about $155 ea and the midranges cost about $200 ea. Add in the $2200 German built Brax amplifer that will power them and the $4000 Alpine sound processor to adjust the sound and you can see my audio tastes are higher than most people. However having all this expensive equipment in the car does mean a thing if it in not installed and tuned correctly. Thankfully I have years of experience to help me to that.
Thread Starter
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 243
Likes: 8
From: Kentucky
Originally Posted by varok
Exactly what I was looking for. Great write-up ! By the way, do you know the rated output power of the amps and the speakers? Thanks.
The ML amplifier is rated at 300 watts RMS at the same frequency range and distortion as the standard amp.
Rookie
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 95
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From: Los Angeles
Thanks cmusic for a very thorough and useful post.
It sounds to me like there is exaggerated separation in all the listening position settings other than "All." Do you hear anything like that, as if out of phase information is being added?
Thanks again.
It sounds to me like there is exaggerated separation in all the listening position settings other than "All." Do you hear anything like that, as if out of phase information is being added?
Thanks again.
Thread Starter
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 243
Likes: 8
From: Kentucky
Originally Posted by cooney
It sounds to me like there is exaggerated separation in all the listening position settings other than "All." Do you hear anything like that, as if out of phase information is being added?
Thanks again.
Yes, there is some out of phase signals going on when the listening position settings are changed, but nothing is being added. The listening position button selects the amount of audio delays to try to optimize each setting for the listeners in that seat. Like the driver setting delays the sound coming from the left front and turns down the volume of the rear speakers to optimize the sound for the driver only. The sound for the other seats in the car suffers because everything is being adjusted to give the best sound to the driver. The rear setting delays the front speakers and turns them down in volume to optimize the sound for the back seat passengers. When you are listening in a seat that is not optimized then some of the sounds you hear are out of phase. It is a by-product of using delays.
Rookie
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 95
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From: Los Angeles
Originally Posted by cmusic
Yes, there is some out of phase signals going on when the listening position settings are changed, but nothing is being added. The listening position button selects the amount of audio delays to try to optimize each setting for the listeners in that seat. Like the driver setting delays the sound coming from the left front and turns down the volume of the rear speakers to optimize the sound for the driver only. The sound for the other seats in the car suffers because everything is being adjusted to give the best sound to the driver. The rear setting delays the front speakers and turns them down in volume to optimize the sound for the back seat passengers. When you are listening in a seat that is not optimized then some of the sounds you hear are out of phase. It is a by-product of using delays.
Once in the back seat I realized that the speakers back there were not playing at all and discovered it was because the system was set to "front." .(I don't know for sure if setting it to "rear" reduces the level of the front speakers entirely, or if "driver" increases the volume of the right speakers, but I suspect that will be the case.) .When you think of it, it is much easier to optimize the signal in different positions in the car by changing the levels of the speaker sets. .If it was done by delays, then the delay would be applied to the signals for the nearest speakers, so their response would be matched with the later arriving sound from the farther away speakers.
What I'm hearing when I switch to "all" from either "driver" or "front" is a narrower, and to my ears more natural, soundstage. .This makes me believe that in addition to adjusting levels, they are playing around with out of phase information (in the positions other than "all") -- perhaps you recall or have heard of the Carver "Sonic Holography" devices (from the early 80's) which used the out of phase information to create a wider soundstage.
.
Last edited by cooney; Dec 18, 2005 at 10:33 AM.
Pole Position
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 347
Likes: 0
From: MD
On the stock rear ~7" sub, can we add 8" regular aftermarket sub replacement, by drilling it a little bigger than stock one to fit?
I am seriously considering this. Or, like what Tim did, add a aftermarket sub in trunk (one 10" or 12"), and wire it through the stock sub.
Help me out..
PS:... but than the stock amp will be powergul enough to run aftermarket subs like this??
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jhgd5Cz...20&I=2065C8VR4
I am seriously considering this. Or, like what Tim did, add a aftermarket sub in trunk (one 10" or 12"), and wire it through the stock sub.
Help me out..
PS:... but than the stock amp will be powergul enough to run aftermarket subs like this??
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jhgd5Cz...20&I=2065C8VR4
Thread Starter
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 243
Likes: 8
From: Kentucky
Originally Posted by aznevoviii
On the stock rear ~7" sub, can we add 8" regular aftermarket sub replacement, by drilling it a little bigger than stock one to fit?
I am seriously considering this. Or, like what Tim did, add a aftermarket sub in trunk (one 10" or 12"), and wire it through the stock sub.
Help me out..
PS:... but than the stock amp will be powergul enough to run aftermarket subs like this??
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jhgd5Cz...20&I=2065C8VR4
I am seriously considering this. Or, like what Tim did, add a aftermarket sub in trunk (one 10" or 12"), and wire it through the stock sub.
Help me out..
PS:... but than the stock amp will be powergul enough to run aftermarket subs like this??
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-jhgd5Cz...20&I=2065C8VR4
The factory amp only puts out about 30-35 watts to the factory sub. That's not very much to power an aftermarket sub. Personally I would remove the factory sub and install and aftermarket 10" or 12" and a 200-400 watt amp just like Tim did.
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Harjumaa
Hi
A lot of useful info in your post. thaks. I have a question about upgrading my audiosystem, as i understand you have a lot of experience in this field you might be able to suggest something. I've planned to spend about 1500$ on the upgrade, is there any point doing so with that kind of money and get a better system? I've had so far Alpine in all my cars, what would you use from their product line. As I live in western europe i might not be able to get a lot of thing that you have in the states, manufactures i mean. As i know the persons who bring Alpine to Estonia, i am able to get the these for sure. Thank you for any helpful information.
BR
CTR
A lot of useful info in your post. thaks. I have a question about upgrading my audiosystem, as i understand you have a lot of experience in this field you might be able to suggest something. I've planned to spend about 1500$ on the upgrade, is there any point doing so with that kind of money and get a better system? I've had so far Alpine in all my cars, what would you use from their product line. As I live in western europe i might not be able to get a lot of thing that you have in the states, manufactures i mean. As i know the persons who bring Alpine to Estonia, i am able to get the these for sure. Thank you for any helpful information.
BR
CTR
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Thread Starter
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 243
Likes: 8
From: Kentucky
CTR,
With your budget the biggest obstacle to just switching out speakers is the factory amp has the built-in active crossovers that can’t be bypassed. Simply dropping in new speakers won’t help much because the factory amp is configured for the factory speakers.
The factory amp's crossovers are set for sub, midbass woofer, and mid/tweeter. The mid and tweeter in each door are ran from the same channels. A cap on the tweeter acts as a passive crossover. Each woofer has its own amp channel. The sub has two channels. The mid/tweeter speaker output lets too much midrange output to be used specifically for a tweeter only. The midbass woofer speaker output cuts the midrange off too low to be effective in a two-way setup. The factory speakers are made by Pioneer and are of good quality.
If I were not going to add new amps for the entire system I would probably use the Alpine SPX speakers. I would use a 6.5” midbass and the tweeter. I would keep the factory 2.5” mid since it would be hard to find a speaker that will fit in its location in the door. (The 2.5” mid is 2.5” in diameter by 1” deep. Any bigger speaker will require the inner door metal to be cut to get it to fit.) The SPXs are similar to Vifa home speakers, which are very good quality.
With your budget the biggest obstacle to just switching out speakers is the factory amp has the built-in active crossovers that can’t be bypassed. Simply dropping in new speakers won’t help much because the factory amp is configured for the factory speakers.
The factory amp's crossovers are set for sub, midbass woofer, and mid/tweeter. The mid and tweeter in each door are ran from the same channels. A cap on the tweeter acts as a passive crossover. Each woofer has its own amp channel. The sub has two channels. The mid/tweeter speaker output lets too much midrange output to be used specifically for a tweeter only. The midbass woofer speaker output cuts the midrange off too low to be effective in a two-way setup. The factory speakers are made by Pioneer and are of good quality.
If I were not going to add new amps for the entire system I would probably use the Alpine SPX speakers. I would use a 6.5” midbass and the tweeter. I would keep the factory 2.5” mid since it would be hard to find a speaker that will fit in its location in the door. (The 2.5” mid is 2.5” in diameter by 1” deep. Any bigger speaker will require the inner door metal to be cut to get it to fit.) The SPXs are similar to Vifa home speakers, which are very good quality.
Driver School Candidate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
From: Harjumaa
thanks
These speakers i could get and still have a rather reasonable amount of money left, what amp(s) you would suggest of using. And what about the sub, would you change it? Just want an idea how much money i would need to spend to get a better system, 1500$ is around something i'm planning to spend at the moment, i could always upgrade in steps, do something now and add some thing later, i guess the amp i should buy in the beginning if i plan to buy a sub later on for intance.
These speakers i could get and still have a rather reasonable amount of money left, what amp(s) you would suggest of using. And what about the sub, would you change it? Just want an idea how much money i would need to spend to get a better system, 1500$ is around something i'm planning to spend at the moment, i could always upgrade in steps, do something now and add some thing later, i guess the amp i should buy in the beginning if i plan to buy a sub later on for intance.
Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
From: TX
Originally Posted by cmusic
With the treble set to +3 or +4 the tweeters sound pretty good to me. With the treble set at 0 I do think they are too low in volume. But that is my personal listening preferences. If you like them then don't worry about replacing them.
I would upgrade the sub. A good sub set up in the correct box and powered correctly will make the system sound better than simply replacing the tweeters. I plan on installing a JL Audio 8W7 8" sub and a Kicker or Alpine amplifier rated at 300-400 watts.
For most people this will be all they need for an audiophile system. However I am more acustomed to extreme high-end car audio systems. My current plan is to replace the door speakers with a tweeter and midrange from a company called Scan-Speak. SS speakers are handbuilt in Denmark and are used in some of the most expensive high-end home speakers available. The tweeters cost about $155 ea and the midranges cost about $200 ea. Add in the $2200 German built Brax amplifer that will power them and the $4000 Alpine sound processor to adjust the sound and you can see my audio tastes are higher than most people. However having all this expensive equipment in the car does mean a thing if it in not installed and tuned correctly. Thankfully I have years of experience to help me to that.
I would upgrade the sub. A good sub set up in the correct box and powered correctly will make the system sound better than simply replacing the tweeters. I plan on installing a JL Audio 8W7 8" sub and a Kicker or Alpine amplifier rated at 300-400 watts.
For most people this will be all they need for an audiophile system. However I am more acustomed to extreme high-end car audio systems. My current plan is to replace the door speakers with a tweeter and midrange from a company called Scan-Speak. SS speakers are handbuilt in Denmark and are used in some of the most expensive high-end home speakers available. The tweeters cost about $155 ea and the midranges cost about $200 ea. Add in the $2200 German built Brax amplifer that will power them and the $4000 Alpine sound processor to adjust the sound and you can see my audio tastes are higher than most people. However having all this expensive equipment in the car does mean a thing if it in not installed and tuned correctly. Thankfully I have years of experience to help me to that.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 879
Likes: 0
From: SC
cmusic i remember you from is350forums.com
i asked u then about a 3way component set, if the 6.5 door is 2.75 depth i can load that just fine. now in the kicks... 1" tweet 4" mid...do you think qlogic will release anything to hold that setup or am i gonna have to get messy?
oh yea how high is the 6.5 in the door? hopefully its right at the bottom front
i asked u then about a 3way component set, if the 6.5 door is 2.75 depth i can load that just fine. now in the kicks... 1" tweet 4" mid...do you think qlogic will release anything to hold that setup or am i gonna have to get messy?
oh yea how high is the 6.5 in the door? hopefully its right at the bottom front
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 879
Likes: 0
From: SC
if you already have the 500/1 use it. i'm not gonna take the time to look at rms for that setup...but just because the amp says 1000 watts doesn't mean it does, or has to be, run at that output constantly. just make sure your gain is very low when first testing it out and slowly increase it to a level that you are comfortable with that doesn't sound like its pushing the sub too far (you can tell). tho a 8w7 is a great place to start, its much heavier then the stock so you might need to do some reinforcing.
Originally Posted by blkIS350
I was actually going to add a JL 8W7 to my ML system and be done. I already have a JL 500/1 amp from my previous system but would this be too much power for the 8? I was using it previously with a 10W7.
Thread Starter
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 243
Likes: 8
From: Kentucky
Originally Posted by blkIS350
I was actually going to add a JL 8W7 to my ML system and be done. I already have a JL 500/1 amp from my previous system but would this be too much power for the 8? I was using it previously with a 10W7.
For the record the amp I'm ending up using will power my 8W7 with about 650 watts.