petjuli

2023 ES300h. I've read up as much as I can how Toyota hybrids work, I'm well aware that the hybrid system switches from regenerative (engine) braking when slowing to a stop.

I keep noticing weird scenarios where it feels like my brakes are off somehow, especially when parking, it seems like as I am coming to a stop its not a smooth transition but almost as if I am completely off the brakes for a millisecond then stopping really quickly.

I did some testing on a drive this evening. I tried my best to keep constant pedal pressure when slowing all the way to a stop. I can feel at 3-5MPH the regenerative system "let go" and then for a fraction of a second it almost feels like I have no brakes but then the hydraulic brakes kick in with a noticeable increase in brake pressure. I'm having a really hard time coming to a smooth stop like I'm used to with old-school brakes. I wouldn't normally care but my wife gets pretty car sick and its only a matter of time before I hear about it ....

Is this just something to get used to or could these possibly be mis-adjusted or need a software update to smooth things out?

TechNut

This is perfectly normal with the hybrid system. You CAN achieve a smooth stop, but it takes a little concentration as a normal “last second” technique won’t end with a smooth stop. I would suggest it will get better with some practice - just remember the brakes will get quite “grabby” once it transitions to the friction brakes. Ironically, this is a bit smoother than my 2015 and considerably better than my former Priuses. Each generation gets better, but still not quite there.

petjuli

Thanks for the info! So far everything on this car has been top notch so I assumed that was just normal operation but figured i'd throw it out there. For the price tag I feel like near perfection isn't a big ask. I can't even imagine how clunky some of those gen1 Prius hybrids must have driven.

ESh

There is a way to adjust the regenerative braking - to overlap the hydraulic brakes but that means less regenerative energy and more usage of normal brakes.

E46CT

I think I know what you're saying -- I'm extremely well aware of hybrid-regen Toyota brake transition -- I've had a total of 5 Toyota/Lexus hybrids. HOWEVER....

The ESh I believe has a particularly distinct / additional problem / layer of this braking issue -- at least both my 2021s did. Basically it's NOT the typical / know "hybrid braking" (sarcastic air quotes here) which I'm referring to---but a sharp/distinct click/brake upon brake pedal release and reapplication at very low speeds. If you've ever driven a BMW with a broken control arm bushing, you know this very sharp almost metallic thud upon brake pedal application.

My first ES did this and my 2nd ES when brand new did NOT have this issue but the issue slowly developed over time until it was in line with the first ES. It was very annoying and I had to learn to drive around it.

My CT200h (both of them) as well as my Prius DID NOT exhibit this behavior DESPITE USING older versions of Toyota's hybrid system.

TL;dr -- yes hybrid systems (particularly toyota) have a characteristic that's not that smooth. HOWEVER do not NECESSARILY discount someone's complaint as THAT problem. I believe it's possible there's yet another issue/problem at play here that has flown under the radar of Lexus. In fact there's a TSB for early 8th gen Camrys having this problem and they got a reprogramming to address it. Despite the ES using the same hardware, the ES did not get this reprogram as a TSB that I know of.

So without driving OP's car, it's not possible to know if he's talking about the NORMAL Hybrid braking "problems" or the distinct problem I am referring to here.

E46CT

This may help:

E46CT

Now that i read this more, it makes sense why sometimes I felt this grabby/jerky brake pedal and other times not. It depends how long the engine has been running. So in situations where I've waiting in line to merge onto the freeway and i'd pull up to the light to wait my turn, i'd feel the very strong jerk. other times in normal traffic where i've recently used the engine, that probably explains why i didn't feel it. i've never actually read this TSB in depth but now it makes sense.

A reason why Toyota could do a TSB for one vehicle and not another, despite having the same problem, is volume. There are more Camrys so more complaints. otherwise Lexus won't spend the money. this has happened with other similar Toyota/Lexus scenarios where Toyota gets a TSB and Lexus doesn't, despite being the same part.

petjuli

I don't think its a concern worth bringing it in on a special trip, but I might mention it at my first scheduled service.

The million dollar question is if I show that TSB to the Lexus guys are they going to tell me too bad until Lexus releases something?

dezymond

Coming from a traditional ICE vehicle, I had to get used to the braking in my ES as well. This is also a point that many reviewers bring up and some refer to as "typical Toyota Hybrid feel" in comparison to say a Honda hybrid. At times I do feel a difference at lower speeds and sometimes it really grabs and sometimes it eases in. How long have you had your ES? I found that driving it completely smooth, including the accelerator, took me a month or two. Both the brake and accelerator feel are much different compared to what I was used to driving the past 15 years which were V6 Hondas and Acuras.

You can show the TSB to the dealership but it may not do much as they will say it's not a ES issue, and then point right back to that source you provided. It could be a software issue, but it could also be an uphill battle you'd be fighting. I predict multiple visits with the same results until there's been enough documentation that their only option is to appease you and look into providing some sort of software update. I had the same uphill battle with my TLX and the infamous ZF9 transmission. 5 dealership visits across 20k miles and I got a new transmission put in. Still a dog of a transmission, but it was smoother than my original one.

petjuli

@dezymond Yeah I'm a newbie with the car. Barely even a week and just today I played with it more and in normal road driving I'm already getting better at it. But the parking lot thing still gets me, I just don't expect it the last 10 feet turning into a spot at slow speed. That sudden change from engine braking it feels like the brakes ever slightly let go so I naturally press the brake harder which makes the hydraulic "kick-in" that much more dramatic. I'll get used to it.

I'll be honest I'm seriously nerding out with the accelerator driving like grandpa trying to get the best MPG possible. 50 seems very attainable on 55MPH country roads with hills and stops. Its incredible.

dezymond

Yeah there's definitely a learning curve. Give it time.

50mpg should be attainable even with hills and stops. Sometimes I just end up taking the backroads versus driving in traffic because 1. it's less stressful and 2. it could actually be the more fuel efficient route. Just filled up today and got a return of 46.8mpg this last tank, my highest ever.

Wihunge

I have noticed in my 2020 es 300h that there is a small but noticeable grab with.the brakes right before a total stop. In my 2023 highlander hybrid the grabbing right before a complete stop is less noticeable. I think Toyota/Lexus is mitigating grabby breaks.

E46CT

i know what you're talking about. i've complained about it before. it's a little jerk/grab/shudder as you release the brake pedal at low speeds right. say if you're creeping at a freeway onramp ready to take away from the light and you're constantly off/on the brake.. jerk jerk jerk. happened to both my 2021 ES hybrids. It didn't do it new, but developed after about 6 mos. apparently toyota says they re-worked the 2023s? the camry owners (check their forums) had a complaint on it and toyota issued a TSB where they recalibrate the software.

the brakes on my newest car are so so supremely super smooth. 100% buttery seamless. a smooth brake pedal for me is a requirement.