8th generation ES!
Pole Position
Joined: May 2021
Posts: 2,533
Likes: 1,358
From: IL
[QUOTE=Jeaco;11881119]
I have a personal opinion, but it has been vindicated by the fact that I stated it up front and so far I've been right.
My opinion: The Crown was a miscalculation by Toyota. They thought the Avalon's sales had sunk because its aging demographic no longer wanted a sedan. As a result, they aimed the Crown as a wild guess to what older upper-middle-income buyers might like better: a sedan with the high seating position and easy entry/exit they seemed to like in SUVs.
This was fatally mistaken in two ways. 1) They misread the reason for the Avalon's failure. It wasn't because the target market no longer wanted a sedan. It was because the last Avalon was ugly. Proof: The previous-gen Avalon saw a big sales surge when it first came out in 2013, typical of newly styled models. The 2019 Avalon only matched the decayed sales of the previous year's five-year-old model, a sure sign that its looks didn't click for people. And it only declined further each year since. This misread led to the next one, since the "cure" was to replace it with something even uglier. 2) The Crown delivered all the minuses of an SUV—tippier handling, a poorer combination of performance and economy—without an SUV's pluses of rear sear headroom and cargo-carrying versatility. Inexplicably, they didn't even give it a hatchback.
I predicted when the Crown came out that if they imported the wagon-roofed Crown Signia here, it'd address both those weaknesses and succeed where the Crown was destined to fail. Although Toyota has already state it will limit the number of Crown Signias it imports here (maybe to 10,000, IIRC), I think they'll prove much more salable than the Crown sedan did.
Has anyone w a ES300h looked at the Toyota Crown, and if so how did it compare?
I did look at the Toyota Crown. It seemed to me to be a comparable car to look at. Similar price and also a hybrid.
It is slightly raised up. Which many like. I did not. I also didn't like the styling of it. It felt very "manly" and not really as classy as I would like. Also, it was the first year of the model, which I was concerned about. I live in a large metropolitan area. You see very few of these. My friends who know Toyota have told me salse of the crown are disappointing.
Lexus gives a longer warranty. The ES is a proven model. And to be honest, it is a lexus over a toyota. It just didn't sway me.
I did look at the Toyota Crown. It seemed to me to be a comparable car to look at. Similar price and also a hybrid.
It is slightly raised up. Which many like. I did not. I also didn't like the styling of it. It felt very "manly" and not really as classy as I would like. Also, it was the first year of the model, which I was concerned about. I live in a large metropolitan area. You see very few of these. My friends who know Toyota have told me salse of the crown are disappointing.
Lexus gives a longer warranty. The ES is a proven model. And to be honest, it is a lexus over a toyota. It just didn't sway me.
My opinion: The Crown was a miscalculation by Toyota. They thought the Avalon's sales had sunk because its aging demographic no longer wanted a sedan. As a result, they aimed the Crown as a wild guess to what older upper-middle-income buyers might like better: a sedan with the high seating position and easy entry/exit they seemed to like in SUVs.
This was fatally mistaken in two ways. 1) They misread the reason for the Avalon's failure. It wasn't because the target market no longer wanted a sedan. It was because the last Avalon was ugly. Proof: The previous-gen Avalon saw a big sales surge when it first came out in 2013, typical of newly styled models. The 2019 Avalon only matched the decayed sales of the previous year's five-year-old model, a sure sign that its looks didn't click for people. And it only declined further each year since. This misread led to the next one, since the "cure" was to replace it with something even uglier. 2) The Crown delivered all the minuses of an SUV—tippier handling, a poorer combination of performance and economy—without an SUV's pluses of rear sear headroom and cargo-carrying versatility. Inexplicably, they didn't even give it a hatchback.
I predicted when the Crown came out that if they imported the wagon-roofed Crown Signia here, it'd address both those weaknesses and succeed where the Crown was destined to fail. Although Toyota has already state it will limit the number of Crown Signias it imports here (maybe to 10,000, IIRC), I think they'll prove much more salable than the Crown sedan did.
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 989
Likes: 555
From: PR
I guess it's all relative to market trends and global decline on sedan sales; specially in the mid-luxury segment. My dealer has had the same 13 ES (mostly base units) sitting for almost 30 days now. In contrast, SUVs like the NX and RX are selling like hot doughnuts. Even the IS sells quicker that the ES, still no comparison to SUV's.
During my last service I noticed the salesperson sitting next to me closing a delivering 2 NX in under 4hrs. That's just 1 salesperson and the dealer have almost 5-8 of them.
During my last service I noticed the salesperson sitting next to me closing a delivering 2 NX in under 4hrs. That's just 1 salesperson and the dealer have almost 5-8 of them.
Instructor
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 911
Likes: 612
From: GA
[QUOTE=mikemu30;11881131]I’m afraid that I have to disagree with their current approach. They USED to do so, but the past few model years have shown Toyotas, especially the interiors, moving up market from what they were, while Lexus has either stood still or fallen down market. Exteriors are somewhat all over the place, and I feel Lexus looks more cohesive overall, but not so the interiors. Yes, the quality of the materials is generally nicer in the Lexus models, and there is more sound insulation as a rule. but they no longer give one that special or immediate sense of luxury, Look at the RX or TX, for example - nice, but do they look markedly better than a plushed-up Toyota interior, for thousands more? For instance, using suede/microfiber/whatever they call it just like Toyota does (the new Camry is awash in it). Eliminating most wood trims or just offering dark, matte pieces here and there does not “enhance" the vehicles’ appearance, especially when you feel the bean counters told them to save money and use less. Cold and not very welcoming is the result. Lexus limits the interior combos severely now, as well, with actually fewer choices than seemed to be the case.
It used to be that when you sat in a new Lexus, like the ES or RX, you immediately sensed that this was something luxurious and clearly above a Toyota. Anymore, and this is often mentioned by reviewer, you get in and feel “Ok, this is nice, I guess, but is it really worth thousands more than its Toyota stablemate?” Generally the consensus is that it’s not. The NX and especially the UX don’t offer much luxury feel, but that is a common flaw with luxury brands selling lower end models to attract the lease crowd to “move up”.
Whenever the real redesign and update of the ES occurs will be the next big opportunity to see if Toyota really does make it worthy of the brand history, or just allow to become what critics have said for too many years, just a fancy Toyota. Unfortunately, with a four banger under the hood, more plastic and less luxury feel, I fear it may drop down a notch. Time will tell.
It used to be that when you sat in a new Lexus, like the ES or RX, you immediately sensed that this was something luxurious and clearly above a Toyota. Anymore, and this is often mentioned by reviewer, you get in and feel “Ok, this is nice, I guess, but is it really worth thousands more than its Toyota stablemate?” Generally the consensus is that it’s not. The NX and especially the UX don’t offer much luxury feel, but that is a common flaw with luxury brands selling lower end models to attract the lease crowd to “move up”.
Whenever the real redesign and update of the ES occurs will be the next big opportunity to see if Toyota really does make it worthy of the brand history, or just allow to become what critics have said for too many years, just a fancy Toyota. Unfortunately, with a four banger under the hood, more plastic and less luxury feel, I fear it may drop down a notch. Time will tell.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 9,509
Likes: 2,576
The worst "up-brand" IMO has to be the TX. the front end plastics, design, sheetmetal, etc screams Toyota Highlander. It doesn't have that premium look/feel a Lexus should have.
I remember coming up back in the day, sitting in a Lexus or Acura of the time period, had a very special feeling. Plush seats with ruffles/pleats, lots of thick leather, premium feel, solid switches and dials. OG Acura TL, RL, Vigor, 00-ish Accord EX-L, 00-ish Lexus GS, 5/6ES/SC.
the best RX was the one two gens ago--I think 2010-2015 ish. The one that really cemented the RX on the map.
I remember coming up back in the day, sitting in a Lexus or Acura of the time period, had a very special feeling. Plush seats with ruffles/pleats, lots of thick leather, premium feel, solid switches and dials. OG Acura TL, RL, Vigor, 00-ish Accord EX-L, 00-ish Lexus GS, 5/6ES/SC.
the best RX was the one two gens ago--I think 2010-2015 ish. The one that really cemented the RX on the map.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 9,556
Likes: 3,397
From: NJ
[QUOTE=ATL350;11881517]
I’m afraid that I have to disagree with their current approach. They USED to do so, but the past few model years have shown Toyotas, especially the interiors, moving up market from what they were, while Lexus has either stood still or fallen down market. Exteriors are somewhat all over the place, and I feel Lexus looks more cohesive overall, but not so the interiors. Yes, the quality of the materials is generally nicer in the Lexus models, and there is more sound insulation as a rule. but they no longer give one that special or immediate sense of luxury, Look at the RX or TX, for example - nice, but do they look markedly better than a plushed-up Toyota interior, for thousands more? For instance, using suede/microfiber/whatever they call it just like Toyota does (the new Camry is awash in it). Eliminating most wood trims or just offering dark, matte pieces here and there does not “enhance" the vehicles’ appearance, especially when you feel the bean counters told them to save money and use less. Cold and not very welcoming is the result. Lexus limits the interior combos severely now, as well, with actually fewer choices than seemed to be the case.
It used to be that when you sat in a new Lexus, like the ES or RX, you immediately sensed that this was something luxurious and clearly above a Toyota. Anymore, and this is often mentioned by reviewer, you get in and feel “Ok, this is nice, I guess, but is it really worth thousands more than its Toyota stablemate?” Generally the consensus is that it’s not. The NX and especially the UX don’t offer much luxury feel, but that is a common flaw with luxury brands selling lower end models to attract the lease crowd to “move up”.
Whenever the real redesign and update of the ES occurs will be the next big opportunity to see if Toyota really does make it worthy of the brand history, or just allow to become what critics have said for too many years, just a fancy Toyota. Unfortunately, with a four banger under the hood, more plastic and less luxury feel, I fear it may drop down a notch. Time will tell.
It's subjective and we'll agree to disagree.
I’m afraid that I have to disagree with their current approach. They USED to do so, but the past few model years have shown Toyotas, especially the interiors, moving up market from what they were, while Lexus has either stood still or fallen down market. Exteriors are somewhat all over the place, and I feel Lexus looks more cohesive overall, but not so the interiors. Yes, the quality of the materials is generally nicer in the Lexus models, and there is more sound insulation as a rule. but they no longer give one that special or immediate sense of luxury, Look at the RX or TX, for example - nice, but do they look markedly better than a plushed-up Toyota interior, for thousands more? For instance, using suede/microfiber/whatever they call it just like Toyota does (the new Camry is awash in it). Eliminating most wood trims or just offering dark, matte pieces here and there does not “enhance" the vehicles’ appearance, especially when you feel the bean counters told them to save money and use less. Cold and not very welcoming is the result. Lexus limits the interior combos severely now, as well, with actually fewer choices than seemed to be the case.
It used to be that when you sat in a new Lexus, like the ES or RX, you immediately sensed that this was something luxurious and clearly above a Toyota. Anymore, and this is often mentioned by reviewer, you get in and feel “Ok, this is nice, I guess, but is it really worth thousands more than its Toyota stablemate?” Generally the consensus is that it’s not. The NX and especially the UX don’t offer much luxury feel, but that is a common flaw with luxury brands selling lower end models to attract the lease crowd to “move up”.
Whenever the real redesign and update of the ES occurs will be the next big opportunity to see if Toyota really does make it worthy of the brand history, or just allow to become what critics have said for too many years, just a fancy Toyota. Unfortunately, with a four banger under the hood, more plastic and less luxury feel, I fear it may drop down a notch. Time will tell.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 9,556
Likes: 3,397
From: NJ
I guess it's all relative to market trends and global decline on sedan sales; specially in the mid-luxury segment. My dealer has had the same 13 ES (mostly base units) sitting for almost 30 days now. In contrast, SUVs like the NX and RX are selling like hot doughnuts. Even the IS sells quicker that the ES, still no comparison to SUV's.
During my last service I noticed the salesperson sitting next to me closing a delivering 2 NX in under 4hrs. That's just 1 salesperson and the dealer have almost 5-8 of them.
During my last service I noticed the salesperson sitting next to me closing a delivering 2 NX in under 4hrs. That's just 1 salesperson and the dealer have almost 5-8 of them.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 9,556
Likes: 3,397
From: NJ
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 4,966
Likes: 1,620
From: MI
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 989
Likes: 555
From: PR
Have you gotten used to the e-Latch door handles? I friend of mine owns a '24 NX and I struggle to adapt every time we ride together..
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 9,556
Likes: 3,397
From: NJ
not sure there's anything to get used to. You touch/press the lever in and the door opens. Not drastically different than pulling a handle in a non digital lock. The added safety feature makes it worthwhile.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 9,556
Likes: 3,397
From: NJ
compared to the last gen RX we had (2017 my), this one is night and day. Now I'm comparing a hybrid which we currently have to a non hybrid we traded so I get the big differences. The ride in the 350h is just so silky smooth, there's no ICE with a conventional trans that can match that feeling.
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,516
Likes: 925
As I said. Here you go, April 2025. ES500e will be announced together with the ES300h.
"LEXUS to unveil the all-new ES on April 23rd at the Shanghai International Automobile Industry Exhibition (April 23 - May 2)*. Details of the all-new ES, a global flagship model that refines advanced electrification technologies and pursues further evolution of its the hallmark quietness and ride comfort, will be announced at a press conference in the Lexus booth on April 23rd. In anticipation of the debut of this new proposition of luxury, Lexus has released a teaser image showing some of the unique design elements."
https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/lexus/42601039.html
"LEXUS to unveil the all-new ES on April 23rd at the Shanghai International Automobile Industry Exhibition (April 23 - May 2)*. Details of the all-new ES, a global flagship model that refines advanced electrification technologies and pursues further evolution of its the hallmark quietness and ride comfort, will be announced at a press conference in the Lexus booth on April 23rd. In anticipation of the debut of this new proposition of luxury, Lexus has released a teaser image showing some of the unique design elements."
https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/lexus/42601039.html
Last edited by 703; Apr 16, 2025 at 04:14 AM.
