The other threads about ideal engines etc got me thinking about this, how much power do you require personally to feel the car is competent?

I don't mean fast or "nice" I am posing this exactly as written in the sense of what is the level YOU feel is enough to perform all driving related functions, for example........pulling out of a suburb onto a 55mph two lane, taking an on ramp from a 45 into a 75 interstate, passing on a 55 backroad, moving ahead and across at a red light to get from the leftmost lane to the rightmost turn lane, performing a interstate pass, driving long distance up and down grades, etc. I am NOT asking how much HP since 140 hp in a CUV is hell but in a Miata is perfectly fine, you are free to express this power level with a 0-60, HP, max RPM you want to have to spin to under normal acceleration, or just using a car as an example of what you feel is acceptable. Feel free to also contrast this with something that is unacceptable.

I'll start with my personal level of "need" and one example of unacceptable to kick it off.




For me a 0-60 of about 8 seconds is enough provided I don't need to spin the engine past 3500 rpm unless it's remarkably quiet, lower RPM high torque engines are preferred due to my personal bias of starting with a 5.9 V8 that never really "needed" more than 2000 rpm. A great example car of this is surprisingly my 03 X-type, I was not sure I would enjoy having a 2.5L engine since it's by far the smallest engine I have ever owned but the car actually fulfills all the tasks I outlined above and even doesn't need too many revs to do it. There is not really a situation when I need to floor it and I worry about making it and flooring it is rare in the first place. The way this car is tuned with gearing and overall behavior means it can realistically say under 3500 at nearly all times. Even the loaner ES250 I posted about a while back is perfectly fine if I ignore the cost of the car and focus solely on how it drove for day to day uses.

An unacceptable car is my old Jeep. The behavior of the engine/trans is not the issue, it never really needs more than 2200 rpm......however that's because really anything past 3k makes ZERO difference in acceleration lol! While having a nice relaxed engine feel the thing is so damn slow that you can't take normal windows in traffic, 0-60 is about 10 seconds but response is so low that you can't exploit anything and you are always yielding and waiting for everyone else. I HATE taking this car anywhere near a city or god forbid on an interstate class road since 65+ is asking a lot. Is 90-100 possible? Sure but it will make you have a hell of an adrenaline rush in a bad way and never want to do it again. Thankfully it's job in my fleet doesn't require it to leave the state or venture onto higher speed roads much if at all.


I look forward to seeing what everyone here thinks since there is a massive spread of opinions from the regulars here in other threads.

 

270HP is the most I need.

 

In what? In a bike? In a 1 ton?

Come on lol! I made sure to explain to not just throw an HP number out there since that doesn't tell us much

 

I was driving back from Boston over Thanksgiving and in CT we ran into a situation where we had to merge onto a 55 MPH 2 lane high way from a stop sign. In the Tesla I wouldn't have blinked an eye, but were in the Odyssey. 280HP and ~ 7 sec 0-60 was actually pretty decent. Anything slower than that and I would've had to wait for a larger opening to gun it. Traction is actually more of an issue with the Ody as even with fresh tires it chirps when gunning it

 

An interesting question, and I'm not sure of my answer. When I had my Silverado, it had 200hp. It was "sufficient" for day to day use, though I hated the truck otherwise. In a smaller, lighter car, 200 is more than enough, as it was when we had our Acura TSX.

I had a Scion tC with 160hp (I later supercharged it) and it was good enough. Going further down, my fairly lightweight 2001 Saturn SL2 had 124hp and I was fine with that too. Not fun, but enough to keep up just fine.

It obviously depends on the car and its purpose. My Tundra has 381hp, and I need every one of those ponies when pulling my trailer, so for that use I would accept no less. Frankly, a bit more wouldn't hurt.

 

As we were discussing in the other thread, I think it really has to do with the car and the gearing. My Pacifica has 290hp, but the transmission gearing makes it so it is incredibly slow to kick down when passing or getting started from a roll, which makes it feel very lethargic and slow. In my LS400 and LS430, 290 hp delivered an incredibly comfortable level of power to where I never needed more.

We always talk about HP, but torque actually is what gives us the shove off the line. Another important factor is the type of engine. Is it naturally aspirated? Well then you will need more power and torque to make it feel responsive at low RPMs otherwise you will need to wind it out to high RPMs to get power all the time, which makes it feel less powerful. Turbocharged? Then you have much more available torque down low in the power band, so it will feel much more powerful with ordinary throttle inputs, so you don't need as much power, but lower powered engines may feel like they run out of steam at higher speeds. EV? Then off the line and around town you can make do with much less power because you have all that torque available with any throttle input.

FWD cars lose power to the ground in hard acceleration off the line. RWD cars can too but its less obvious. AWD puts the power down the best.

So there are lots of factors. I cant really say any amount of power is enough' without knowing the car and all those other factors.

I do know I absolutely do not need any more power than I have in the S560, most acceleration needs can be addressed with 1/2-3/4 throttle. At 75 a one second push to the throttle delivers triple digit speeds that will complete any passing maneuver. Those maneuvers require foot to the floor WOT in the Pacifica, but they didn't in my LS400 and 430 with the same power.

 

Excellent response! I concur that somehow the "280" hp that the early LSs had feels great and punches above what it should.

The LS400/430 have a lot more wheel torque than your 3.6, the 3.6 needs the trans to downshift to match them and that's where the difference is even though power and weight are similar. V8s simply have superior average power to a 6 and don't need the revs. Turbos correct this with near total impunity vs engine size as long as it spools quickly.

 

I would say that in normal driving in traffic, there should be sufficient power to do 0-60 in about 12-14 seconds, at less than half throttle and upshifting before 3000 or 3500 rpm. Smooth acceleration when you're not trying to be all boy racer, but more grunt available if you do need it. For a midsize car or CUV--say a Camry or RAV4--this is probably somewhere in the 225-250hp range. More like 300hp for something larger/heavier.

 

Personally I think these high speed transmissions are more trouble than they are worth. Outside of say my Mercedes or the LS460, I havent had any car with a 7, 8 or 9 speed transmission where the gearing didnt seem confused. To me the 5 and 6 speeds just felt the most natural.

 

Toyota 4Runner. That is what I have in my new 2021. With full time 4wd.. big displacement, it is just perfect for me. My 4.7 makes 235hp which is not enough past 60MPH, but the V8 is better around town

 

All the ZF 8-speeds I've driven have felt perfectly natural. Way better than almost any 5/6 speed. 7/8-speed dual clutches like the PDK, C8, etc are also excellent. I've driven other high-gear-count transmissions that were just bad (Honda 9-speed, I'm looking at you!).

The ZF6 in my E90 is fine (except when cold--holds gears FOREVER even at part throttle, and then shifts harshly), but doesn't hold a candle to the ZF8 in our Q7.

 

Personally I think my CX-9 suits my driving style very well, while giving me a decent level of practicality for my family and my hobbies. It's a 4400lb 7-seater SUV with AWD, a 6-speed auto, and 227hp/310ft-lb tq coming from a turbo 4cyl. It does 0-60 in 7.2ish on a good day. Great for city driving, but only decent on the highway due to it's lack of passing power at higher speeds. It's never been a problem for me as I can plan ahead for most situations like high speed merges and overtaking on 2-lane highways. Transmission is paired well with the engine, zero issues finding the right gear to be in and shifts are smooth and clean.

I drove my wife's 2006 Civic DX for a couple of years while we were car shopping (before the CX-9). Good car for driving around the city, but definitely lacking on the highway, especially when we drove it up to Banff. The engine really struggled going uphill, and at highway speeds, the NVH was pretty bad.

I think driving style will dictate what is "enough" for most people. If you like to be at the front of the pack and/or if you want to easily pass anyone on the highway, you'll want a powerful vehicle. If you don't mind driving behind a semi or coasting along at the speed limit, most of what's available today will be enough. More power means more opportunity and capability, that's for sure.

 

I'm not exactly sure what the number should be for me personally. But I've always been the type to say "Its better to have it and not need it, then to need it, and not have it"

 

I like that

 

As someone who has passed cars in the mountains into oncoming traffic in a Prius...this is very true lol