SUV conundrum
here's the problem with those stupid charts.
145 problems per 100 vehicles (best) is avg 1.45 problems per vehicle, right?
284 problems per 100 vehicles (worst) is avg 2.84 problems per vehicle, right?
so while charts allow owners of vehicles near the top to virtue signal all day long, the truth is the worst has less than 3 problems while the best has less that 1.5 problems, so hardly a big deal either way.
145 problems per 100 vehicles (best) is avg 1.45 problems per vehicle, right?
284 problems per 100 vehicles (worst) is avg 2.84 problems per vehicle, right?
so while charts allow owners of vehicles near the top to virtue signal all day long, the truth is the worst has less than 3 problems while the best has less that 1.5 problems, so hardly a big deal either way.
Depends on the problems. One instance of an infotainment screen reboot compared to three instances is minor to some (though IMO one instance is a glitch, three warrants troubleshooting). On the other hand, one instance of cylinder head replacement vs three instances of cylinder head replacement. Granted, three instances of a major issue on one vehicle is very unlikely.
Not a perfect metric by any means, but it can be a useful indicator to identify if further research is needed.
Last edited by sm1ke; Aug 17, 2022 at 08:48 AM.
Lexus Champion
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From: FL
The only must have requirements are real cargo hold downs, ability to hold at least a full size washer/dryer size item, and ability to carry an item of that size that's is 1000-1200lb and towing at least 5000lb with an overall size not exceeding about the size car I already have. Off road ability is a plus but not really required, I just like having at least one car I can take to trails and not care about damage.
That's why I'm not dazzled by graphs and charts anymore for exactly this reason.
I can see this too but I can also see some "poisoning the well" by a badly made graph that has an agenda, in theory.
funny how the only posts i see from you are to virtue-signal about lexus reliability.
I have three friends that have had Land Rovers that would totally disagree with you but now own Lexus. Be the beta tester for this. Buy a 4-year-old Land Rover hold it for 4 years and tell us what you think.
I've never been a fan of these charts and reports showing "problems" or charting "reliability" and have been outspoken on the forum about it. But bit is absolutely right - if you look at Lexus it's 159 problems per 100 cars and Land Rover is 284 problems per 100 cars. This is likely a pretty decent sample size, however your 3 friends with Land Rovers is an extremely small sample size.
I'm a sales guy and numbers never lie, but I can make them say whatever you want them to say - especially when using graphs and charts where things can be scaled differently. Imagine if this chart was done showing problems per car (not problems per 100 cars). Every manufacturer would be jumbled together.
Lexus sales rep pitch using this chart: Land Rover vehicles have a 75% higher "problem rate" reported using JD Power data compared to Lexus
*Notice how I switch to percentages here to drive the largest gap possible.
Land Rover sales rep pitch: Did you see the latest JD Power report? We only have 1.2 more problems per car compared to Lexus which is historically one of the most reliable luxury brands.
* Notice how I extrapolated the chart data from per 100 cars down to a single car to minimize the gap as much as possible and make it more relatable to the individual.
PS- Both statements are true.
Research what Purdue Pharmaceutical did manipulating their charts and graphs for Oxycontin. The visuals of how data is presented makes all the difference.
I'm a sales guy and numbers never lie, but I can make them say whatever you want them to say - especially when using graphs and charts where things can be scaled differently. Imagine if this chart was done showing problems per car (not problems per 100 cars). Every manufacturer would be jumbled together.
Lexus sales rep pitch using this chart: Land Rover vehicles have a 75% higher "problem rate" reported using JD Power data compared to Lexus
*Notice how I switch to percentages here to drive the largest gap possible.
Land Rover sales rep pitch: Did you see the latest JD Power report? We only have 1.2 more problems per car compared to Lexus which is historically one of the most reliable luxury brands.
* Notice how I extrapolated the chart data from per 100 cars down to a single car to minimize the gap as much as possible and make it more relatable to the individual.
PS- Both statements are true.
Research what Purdue Pharmaceutical did manipulating their charts and graphs for Oxycontin. The visuals of how data is presented makes all the difference.
seems people like to tout these charts to say 'see how smart i was getting brand x and not brand y'.
Not a perfect metric by any means, but it can be a useful indicator to identify if further research is needed.
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Posts: 35,514
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From: ON/NY
that's not what i'm saying, that's what the chart says.
funny how the only posts i see from you are to virtue-signal about lexus reliability.
buying ANY 4 year old vehicle has risks, no matter how 'reliable' a given manufacturer is. that's why i don't buy used cars. i did not write that land rovers are as reliable as lexus. i said the chart is stupid, because it exaggerates the differences.
post of the day.
seems people like to tout these charts to say 'see how smart i was getting brand x and not brand y'.
agreed it's not useless, but the dramatic chart distorts the data. would i buy a land rover? no because it just doesn't appeal to me.
funny how the only posts i see from you are to virtue-signal about lexus reliability.
buying ANY 4 year old vehicle has risks, no matter how 'reliable' a given manufacturer is. that's why i don't buy used cars. i did not write that land rovers are as reliable as lexus. i said the chart is stupid, because it exaggerates the differences.
post of the day.
seems people like to tout these charts to say 'see how smart i was getting brand x and not brand y'.
agreed it's not useless, but the dramatic chart distorts the data. would i buy a land rover? no because it just doesn't appeal to me.
Thread Starter
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 18,456
Likes: 1,810
From: Ohio
Any individual car can be totally reliable for 300k+ miles or be on engine 3 during a lease period....it just depends on how much of the extremes a brand tends to produce.
If you picked a certain brand you then need to look at the actual model you want and if it has a bad history. Then the customer has to determine what amount of risk they want to take be looking at the info that is available to them.
For example I a customer with a 2009 S550 4-matic with 317k miles who only ever does maintenance and everything works as it should. I have also had a Camry with a failed headgasket at only 80k and a Sennina van at 90k with a grenaded cam. All are exceptions to the trend of those vehicles.
For me personally I just don't want to have to constantly work on something. I'm more than willing (and normally do....) replace ALL consumables once (suspension, brakes, anything that is rubber, all fluid seals, mounts etc) when I buy the car and make everything right/factory spec again. I did it with the 430, the 460, and the A8 and didn't mind doing it. However I'm on round 3 with the Jeep and it also needed MAJOR work to keep going and I'm tired of it.
I'm okay with headgaskets for example, if I only I need to do it ONCE. When I buy I car I look at THAT car and see how it's doing, I screwed up with my Jeep since I got it for free and didn't really check it over.
If you picked a certain brand you then need to look at the actual model you want and if it has a bad history. Then the customer has to determine what amount of risk they want to take be looking at the info that is available to them.
For example I a customer with a 2009 S550 4-matic with 317k miles who only ever does maintenance and everything works as it should. I have also had a Camry with a failed headgasket at only 80k and a Sennina van at 90k with a grenaded cam. All are exceptions to the trend of those vehicles.
For me personally I just don't want to have to constantly work on something. I'm more than willing (and normally do....) replace ALL consumables once (suspension, brakes, anything that is rubber, all fluid seals, mounts etc) when I buy the car and make everything right/factory spec again. I did it with the 430, the 460, and the A8 and didn't mind doing it. However I'm on round 3 with the Jeep and it also needed MAJOR work to keep going and I'm tired of it.
I'm okay with headgaskets for example, if I only I need to do it ONCE. When I buy I car I look at THAT car and see how it's doing, I screwed up with my Jeep since I got it for free and didn't really check it over.
Last edited by Striker223; Aug 17, 2022 at 01:01 PM.
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