Musk talks about NDA on FSD
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 31,944
Likes: 2,737
From: North Carolina
Stop the escalation, needless nit-picking, argument and drama creation on any possible negative Tesla post that takes so many Tesla threads down the crapper. Want to discuss, PM me.
Last edited by DaveGS4; Sep 29, 2021 at 02:42 PM.
Strawman.
I watch Tesla vids all the time the authors show everything, sometimes for 45 minutes or more. Good, bad, great, terrible it's all there. There is no grand conspiracy. If anything Tesla Autopilot is the most open, transparent system out there by far. And it's also by far the best it tries to drive in every possible situation that's how the system learns. Every other system is highly restricted and geofenced.
Also why are you against tech that is trying to save lives?
I watch Tesla vids all the time the authors show everything, sometimes for 45 minutes or more. Good, bad, great, terrible it's all there. There is no grand conspiracy. If anything Tesla Autopilot is the most open, transparent system out there by far. And it's also by far the best it tries to drive in every possible situation that's how the system learns. Every other system is highly restricted and geofenced.
Also why are you against tech that is trying to save lives?
Tech that is trying to save lives by being beta tested which have shown in videos to almost be putting the drivers in serious danger before they took over and saved themselves?
You continue wanting them to beta test and only if it takes someone life you will rethink right? Although I am not sure if you would. Wouldn't be shocked if you continued to defend fsd, what's a few lives for the greater good.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,052
Likes: 4,328
From: Alberta
Elon said the NDA may as well not exist no one abides by it. Not sure what else to say about this. You can find 100's of Autopilot videos in every conceivable situation that to me makes it a very transparent system. It does some incredible stupid things that is why it is still in beta.
There is no other way to properly test, has to be real world situations. If you think that makes the roads more dangerous I'd like to see your stats on this.
Are you accusing me of not caring if people die?
I think it is largely true from what I've seen, yes.
I have never said this. I don't know anyone that has said this or read any account of anyone saying this.
That is not my logic or anything remotely close.
If people want a bunch of context on Autopilot and other things Tesla in general this is a good watch.
Tech that is trying to save lives by being beta tested which have shown in videos to almost be putting the drivers in serious danger before they took over and saved themselves?
You continue wanting them to beta test and only if it takes someone life you will rethink right? Although I am not sure if you would. Wouldn't be shocked if you continued to defend fsd, what's a few lives for the greater good.
Are you accusing me of not caring if people die?
Lord Elon says everyone ignores it so that means it must be true.
I guess everything he says is true?
Well he did say FSD will be out years ago. Let me go buy myself a tesla and sleep in the backseat while it drives me across the country. This is your logic, remember what Elon says is true and is proof.
If people want a bunch of context on Autopilot and other things Tesla in general this is a good watch.
Last edited by LeX2K; Sep 29, 2021 at 04:25 PM.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,825
Likes: 4,102
From: Maryland
There is a reason why carmakers don't release stuff like this onto the streets in "beta test", its different than beta testing a phone operating system...
It absolutely can be tested and perfected by professionals vs beta testing.
It absolutely can be tested and perfected by professionals vs beta testing.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,052
Likes: 4,328
From: Alberta
Answer this question, if Tesla can achieve autonomy without beta testers why are there beta testers? Is Tesla completely wrong on this? Do they not care about safety? Both? Are they doing it out of sheer greed? What is the motivation?
Elon said the NDA may as well not exist no one abides by it. Not sure what else to say about this. You can find 100's of Autopilot videos in every conceivable situation that to me makes it a very transparent system. It does some incredible stupid things that is why it is still in beta.
There is no other way to properly test, has to be real world situations. If you think that makes the roads more dangerous I'd like to see your stats on this.
Are you accusing me of not caring if people die?
I think it is largely true from what I've seen, yes.
I have never said this. I don't know anyone that has said this or read any account of anyone saying this.
That is not my logic or anything remotely close.
If people want a bunch of context on Autopilot and other things Tesla in general this is a good watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqhgkCAOkjk
There is no other way to properly test, has to be real world situations. If you think that makes the roads more dangerous I'd like to see your stats on this.
Are you accusing me of not caring if people die?
I think it is largely true from what I've seen, yes.
I have never said this. I don't know anyone that has said this or read any account of anyone saying this.
That is not my logic or anything remotely close.
If people want a bunch of context on Autopilot and other things Tesla in general this is a good watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqhgkCAOkjk
Every time a FSD discussion comes up your defensive point is to highlight no one has been involved in a serious accident / died from using FSD so nothing needs to be changed. So what I have taken from that stance you have clearly shown to have multiple times is someone has to die / get injured before your thought process changes. I rather be proactive that reactive.
You think its largely true from what you have seen. Do you have stats to back that up? A break down of everyone who is a Beta tester and which ones doesn't follow the NDA?
Last edited by Blaze876; Sep 29, 2021 at 06:00 PM.
Perhaps. I see no evidence of this at all, every other FSD system out there is extremely limited in what it can do no way you can activate it on any street anywhere and expect it to drive the car. Autopilot can do this in part because it collects data and learns from it there is no substitute.
Answer this question, if Tesla can achieve autonomy without beta testers why are there beta testers? Is Tesla completely wrong on this? Do they not care about safety? Both? Are they doing it out of sheer greed? What is the motivation?
Answer this question, if Tesla can achieve autonomy without beta testers why are there beta testers? Is Tesla completely wrong on this? Do they not care about safety? Both? Are they doing it out of sheer greed? What is the motivation?
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,052
Likes: 4,328
From: Alberta
there is no other way to test, has to be real world situations...I agree. Done by professionals who are trained and will remain aware of their surroundings at all times, is trained when an environment might be too high risk at the current abilities of FSD, etc. Is this a hard concept for you to understand?
Every time a FSD discussion comes up your defensive point is to highlight no one has been involved in a serious accident / died from using FSD so nothing needs to be changed.
So what I have taken from that stance you have clearly shown to have multiple times is someone has to die / get injured before your thought process changes. I rather be proactive that reactive.
You clearly keep reiterating that Elon said the NDA may as well not exist because no one abides by it. When DaveGS4 said certainly not everyone ignore it you asked him for proof. Your proof is Elon said everyone does ignore it. So all I can really take from this is you believe what Elon says is true. Because he have never shown to have lied before so what he says must be true.
I have seen far, far more evidence than the NDA is irrelevant than it is being adhered to. If I see the opposite I'll change my mind.
You think its largely true from what you have seen. Do you have stats to back that up? A break down of everyone who is a Beta tester and which ones doesn't follow the NDA?
I'm sure you believe I am unable to grasp such things.
No. I keep saying Autopilot is safer than a human on average much safer. What is the improvement factor needed before you would consider it okay to use? 20x? 100x? Has to be perfect?
I think there are far worse risks than Autopilot. Terrible drivers, unsafe cars, drunk drivers to name a few. Any possible way to reduce tragedy on the roads is what I want including autonomous driving tech. Someone close to me died because of a drunk driver I'm well aware of what unsafe driving can do. So don't accuse me of not caring about road safety.
I have seen far, far more evidence than the NDA is irrelevant than it is being adhered to. If I see the opposite I'll change my mind.
What do you want me to do write a research paper? There are hundreds (probably thousands) of Autopilot vids on YT some are 45 minutes or longer. The good, the bad, the terrible and the amazing. If you don't agree that's fine my opinion is something I'm allowed to have is it not? It should be obvious to anyone that looks into Autopilot that the NDA is not exactly keeping people from sharing what the tech can do. There are YT channels entirely dedicate to it with millions of views that is quite compelling evidence. Again, my opinion.
No. I keep saying Autopilot is safer than a human on average much safer. What is the improvement factor needed before you would consider it okay to use? 20x? 100x? Has to be perfect?
I think there are far worse risks than Autopilot. Terrible drivers, unsafe cars, drunk drivers to name a few. Any possible way to reduce tragedy on the roads is what I want including autonomous driving tech. Someone close to me died because of a drunk driver I'm well aware of what unsafe driving can do. So don't accuse me of not caring about road safety.
I have seen far, far more evidence than the NDA is irrelevant than it is being adhered to. If I see the opposite I'll change my mind.
What do you want me to do write a research paper? There are hundreds (probably thousands) of Autopilot vids on YT some are 45 minutes or longer. The good, the bad, the terrible and the amazing. If you don't agree that's fine my opinion is something I'm allowed to have is it not? It should be obvious to anyone that looks into Autopilot that the NDA is not exactly keeping people from sharing what the tech can do. There are YT channels entirely dedicate to it with millions of views that is quite compelling evidence. Again, my opinion.
Did you want him to write a research paper? There are many videos showing people thinking their Tesla can drive themselves without them paying attention. His opinion is something he is allowed to have is it not? It should be obvious to anyone that looks at the name FSD "Full Self Driving" that it is not exactly portraying to people that the tech actually can not full self drive. There are countless videos with millions of views that show quite compelling evidence of peole using FSD without paying attention. Just my opinion though....I am literally using your exact argument but of course you will try to argue against your own logic.
When did we switch to Autopilot not being safe? Were we not discussion FSD? I thought autopilot was different than FSD, correct me if I am wrong. FSD has not proven to be more safe than a typical human driver. If it was, it would already have been driving across the country with minimal to no intervention....like a typical human driver.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 26,052
Likes: 4,328
From: Alberta
I've made my points I don't feel the need to say another version. Watch the Sandy Munro vid I posted that's how a feel for the most part. Sandy is a guy that has been in the auto biz for decades I'd say he is considered credible.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 31,944
Likes: 2,737
From: North Carolina
On important point about NDAs I'm unfortunately able to chip in on this conversation that seems to be missing... Unfortunately I've got a lot of experience with NDAs both being subject to them personally and professionally working with lawyers drafting, revising and executing them.
The very definition of an NDA (non-disclosure agreement) is that you would NOT see evidence from the people that are subject to them. You only see evidence from people who are ignoring or not subject to them.
The very definition of an NDA (non-disclosure agreement) is that you would NOT see evidence from the people that are subject to them. You only see evidence from people who are ignoring or not subject to them.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,825
Likes: 4,102
From: Maryland
Perhaps. I see no evidence of this at all, every other FSD system out there is extremely limited in what it can do no way you can activate it on any street anywhere and expect it to drive the car. Autopilot can do this in part because it collects data and learns from it there is no substitute.
Answer this question, if Tesla can achieve autonomy without beta testers why are there beta testers? Is Tesla completely wrong on this? Do they not care about safety? Both? Are they doing it out of sheer greed? What is the motivation?
Answer this question, if Tesla can achieve autonomy without beta testers why are there beta testers? Is Tesla completely wrong on this? Do they not care about safety? Both? Are they doing it out of sheer greed? What is the motivation?
There are Beta testers because its all part of Elon Musk's hubris, his idea that a car is not but a tech item itself, and the fact that he can get people to pay him to test his overpromised product. Its all part of the "cult of Tesla" and this unwavering belief that Musk would never tell them something that isn't true.
I have a TON of respect for Musk and for Tesla, but this is just reckless, this whole thing. Its not reasonable for the rest of us to share the public roads with vehicles being "tested" by anybody with an extra $10k laying around.