Yep, like much of this thread just total BS revisionist history and making up anything grasping at straws to have an argument. M340i wasn't even produced until 2019, even if counting the "is" like 335is (which was engine tune only, no suspension tune or anything else), that didn't enter production until ~2011. The current "AMG" 43 engine began production sales in ~2016, 53 not for a few years after. Meanwhile F-Sport was actually introduced at SEMA all the way back in 2007 (I was there) to coincide with IS F. But yeah, obviously cars that didn't begin production until 2011/2016/2019, that's why others succeeded but the F failed back in 2007.

 

You're confusing "F-Sport" and the current "F-Sport Performance." The F-Sport styling and suspension upgrades package introduced in 2007 was not the first. Mercedes, BMW, and Audi all had their M-Sport, AMG-line, S-Line, and Sport packages offered on their vehicles. The new AMG Performance and M-lite 40i/50i models have also come before the new F Sport Performance.

 

There is no confusion, my commentary is direct to the quote in the quoted post which specifically mentioned M340i and the current C43 "AMG".

 

Yes, what I am saying is Lexus was not in fact the starters of F Sport as a middle ground. The F Sport as a middle ground started with the F Sport Performance of the IS500, following BMW's and Mercedes's M40i/50i and AMG 43/53 models. F Sport in itself has and always been a styling/sport package, following what BMW, Benz, and Audi did with their M Sport, AMG Line, and S Lines, as I just said.

 

And I have never once suggested that Lexus was the first to do an "F Sport" type of branding, so no clue why this is directed at me.

 

Ironically the history of "F Sport" branded accessories I do believe was born in the USA board rooms with the launch of the over the counter accessories... Heavily assisted by the TRD USA technical team specialists..
Debuted at SEMA 2007 - parts arrived later in 2008 for purchase.

(right next to the "IS F" launch )

From there Lexus Japan / International like the concept soo much - that a few years later they adopted a factory built "F Sport Package" - which included NONE of the USA F Sport Accesory parts..

It's a lot more convoluted, but for simplicity sake... The F Sport accessory items only lived on for a while and few items with the ability to still make replacement parts for when or as needed..

While the Factory backed / developed F Sport parts are just like any other parts in the Lexus parts catalogue.

Joe Z

 

i wasn't confused and i know exactly what i was talking about in my posts. but if that's how you want to define it? be my guest.

to me the history was simple. lexus came out with F, management said let's add fsport as well. years later BMW and MB said dang that's a good idea, we should dilute the M and AMG badge as well so let's make it happen. However instead of just some cosmetic and suspension changes, they said why not turn the **** on the turbos a little bit for more power? just like that m sport and amg line were born. now lexus say we will add another fsport performance which is fsport + more powerful engine.

lexus is not the first one to add engine performance boost to the diluted performance line, i absolutely agree (and i shame bmw and amg for that all the time), however to say lexus didn't start this "middle ground" thing (in natnut's words) just doesn't hold much ground. naming convention is a dead giveaway. also the fact that fsport are more expensive than regular lexus so it's a step above, standing between regular and true f. it's not like lexus had two lines, a luxury line and a fsport line, where pricing are about the same so it was a choice for customers on which direction they want to go.

 

So how exactly is the F-Sport Package that was offered with the 2IS different from BMW's M-Sport Package that's been offered on the 3 Series since the e36 generation, or Audi's S-Line Package offered on the A4 since the B6 generation? Styling and suspension tuning and whatnot. Any sport styling package like this derived from the true F/M/RS is of course and has been more expensive and a step up from the regular models. This is what I am trying to say, Lexus was not the first to offer a sport package derived from their full performance models. If I am getting something wrong here, please let me know.

 

you focus on the offering and i focus on the diluted name, that's the difference. bmw had sport packages for their models but they never called those cars msport, not until long after lexus came out with fsport. 2gs300 had sport design packages, i never had problem with it. is300 also had some sports variance, i had no problem with it.

when lexus came out with isf i was very excited, then i saw fsport name and i thought to myself, really? the dilution of F, M, and AMG names is a problem to me. this is directly targeting at natnut's constantly moving target with his argument on fsport. i try to play fair to everyone, shame on all these brands for diluting the great max performance name plates, lexus started it all and yet they have had very poor execution followed by uncoherent management in direction of "sport"

 

The sad reality in the next 10 years.

 

I still think there’s some latitude to be given to Lexus as it tries to develop the F brand.

AMG started in the late 1960s, M in the early 1970s. S cars in 1990, RS in 1994. By contrast Lexus F sport, sport design and dedicated F models are relatively new. Yes TRD is older but Lexus as an independent brand developing its own performance division is separate from TRD.

maybe Lexus will never develop a more dedicated track car like the CS or CSL from M, but give them some time to figure it out. I think that once Lexus builds a larger performance model base w/ customers (w/ offerings like the IS500), they’ll start making focused performance models. At least that is my hope. And yes I agree that this car might be a bit of a letdown (on paper) but I still think it could be a great sport sedan option and a step in the right direction (once pricing and test drives are available).

and I’ll reiterate, that the final verdict on the IS500 can’t be made without driving the car. Lots of band wagoners, who just start gushing over a car bc a magazine or a crowd of influencers say it’s great based off a spec sheet or marketing. So let’s see how this car turns out, maybe some people will be pleasantly surprised.

 

What progression has Lexus made with F brand since original ISF came out?
Again they are NOT committed to it - its more of a side project and their products reflect that.

M and AMG vehicles are developed at inception of the regular model and there is continued investment into the product. They also have predictable timeline of rollout about 1yr after the standard series model.

Lexus has never even made a 2nd gen of any F product.

Again if they committed the resources- then they could have made F really special like the LFA was and even original ISF. Instead they hesitated and just decided to make F known better as Fsport package rather than for actual F performance models.

I’m happy they are doing IS500 and hopefully LCF follows soon!

 

i am actually a strong believer that if toyota/lexus want to do it, they can absolutely make some super nice sports car. just look at supra and lfa. but the problem is commitment which has been disappointing.

and i have no problem with is500, it might be a good car and i surely hope so. from the beginning i have been saying they better have a true F to come after this otherwise it's very sad how they continue to damage the F branding

 

The F story is somewhat disconnected. The first production F that came out was IS F for the 2008 model year. LFA came shortly after in 2009 as a 2012 model. RC F and GS F followed suit. It should have been LFA first, IS F second and so on. But because of development timing and overlap, this was not the case. But technically LF-A (Concept) which later became LFA (Production) was the first true F without being an F back then.

Although there is some inaccuracies in this thread about F and F SPORT, it is true the F SPORT branding was meant to be a performance accessory line of parts for the IS and other vehicles. F SPORT Performance Accessory Line debuted at the SEMA Show 2007, I was there. These parts were NOT designed by TRD USA, but was designed in-house at Toyota Motor Sales USA in the Corporate Accessories Department (CAD). This is the same team that develops TRD accessory parts for the Toyota line up. Because TRD Japan (Toyota Technocraft) and TRD USA are related but separate entities with different purposes, the naming gets a bit muddy, I can talk about that in a whole separate discussion.

Because TMC (Japan) makes the ultimate decisions on branding, they liked the F SPORT branding so much, that they made it a trim line starting with the 2011 IS F SPORT. This was not the true purpose of F SPORT from the start, but because of TMC's decision, F SPORT didn't continue on to be the performance accessory line it was originally designed to be. Notice the logos...the first F SPORT logo (USA accessory) was modified version of the "F" fuji logo. The 2nd F SPORT logo (factory trim) incorporates the real "F" fuji logo and the sport right below it.

 

Exactly how much better is the second generation ISF vs. The new IS 500 Fsport Performance?