Bingo! your average consumer never heard of the Genesis and this upcoming refreshed G70 is quite appealing, there's no reason to buy the Lexus, unless you plan to own beyond 100k miles. Even then, I would still pick the G70 for the power and tech alone. It's the superior drivers car period.

 

X3 appeal to a different demographic, the 3 series buyers that left went for the Tesla Model 3 performance not the X3. There is a large subset of 3 series buyers who buys only the 3 series. If you peruse BMW forums you'll see guys started from the E36, all the way to the G20. Besides with how big the 3'er has gotten there's no need to buy a 5 series. The only bimmer that may appeal to some 3'er drivers is the 2 series coupe ala 240/M2/M2C for those who feels the 3'er has gotten too big and that's only us few who drove the E36/E46's. Current G20 is almost as large as the E39 5 series so it sure has grown in size.

 

That may be true but it's still a premature claim since both the refreshed Genesis G70 and the refreshed 2021 Lexus IS have yet to be test driven. As a side note, the 3 series may end up being not the purist driver's pick of the 3 models in terms of chassis dynamics considering how Lexus and Genesis seem to have caught up and even surpassed BMW in chassis engineering in the recent past.

 

I think the G20 reversed that trend. It's much better than the F30 and is near the top in terms of handling capability. The IS350 has always had a great chassis. It's just begging for a powertrain to really take advantage of it.

They are pretty much all comparable right now along with the Giulia. It's too bad CUVs are killing such a great segment.

 

CUVs are dominating agreed.

Fair point, and I think it compounds the problem I mentioned earlier. If folks are going off brand to the Model 3 or staying on brand with the 3, would a redesigned, ground up Lexus IS justify its investment?

The G70 faces an uphill battle with the dealership network and pricing while being a sedan. The North American Genesis brand is using the loss leader philosophy to gain traction, and that for some reason has not paid any dividends in the luxury car market for some reason. Thats should change with the GV80 i suppose (luxury CUVs have resuscitated Volvo and kept the lights on at Cadillac, infiniti, and Acura).

 

Lexus should have just rebadged the Toyota Crown as the next gen GS.

The Crown is RWD and AWD and has more technology than the outgoing GS. The top of the line 3.5RS has the same power train as the LS500h.

 

Most consumers are not after purchasing sporty niches.
Even BMW has gone mainstream a long time ago, making their vehicles bigger, heavier, softer and quieter - in order to achieve larger sales volume.

The IS is a little sporty, but not too heavily sporty - otherwise sales would plummet, resulting in a possible axing.

Lots of marketing, lots of dealerships, low prices, long warranties and great after sales service - they all help, but most importantly, the car must be good in its own right.
Your favorite Tesla has only 50 dealerships across the USA, and look at the sales?

I'm so busy and exhausted lately - I must test drive your favorite G20 3 Series some time...

 

This refresh will not help the sales just like how the major restyling of 4LS didn't help the sales either even though it had a revamped interior, unlike this IS. Simply put current LS owners didn't want to upgrade to the exact same car. Pretty much the same thing will happen here, current owners will not opt to go to the same exact car, it might attract some new owners but overall sales will stagnate.

 

It comes down to pragmatism, pragmatism is all well and good but these are luxury cars, pragmatism takes a back seat to varying degrees. Issue is, Toyota continues to run Lexus like an economy car company, while the Germans are investing in cars throughout their lineup despite market shifts. Lexus is king of the scarcity mindset, while BMW and MB and Audi are coming from a position of abundance. Lexus can outspend and out develop those companies in an instant, they have the capital and the know how to do it...they just don't have the drive or the confidence which is why they are no longer a peer of those companies.

Genesis will be the asian counterpart to the Germans going forward, they have the drive and the right mindset. Lexus relegated to tier 2 states with Acura, etc.

 

BMW is doing great because they won the hearts of passionate owners who built the brand up over time and it carried to the mainstream markets. For luxury or sports brands, brand is extremely important and the enthusiasts are the champions to that brand. BMW gives you way more options than a Lexus. You can have a soft floaty ride or a hard core track car all on the same platform. BMW is just not mainstream...they cater to enthusiasts waaaaay more than Lexus.

There is a reason all the new car brands release a sporty sedan first. Capture the enthusiast and let them spread the word. Mainstream SUV comes after. Any car company can do the reverse but it seems there is a formula that is tried and true.

I recommend test driving the M340. It's a fantastic sports sedan.

 

How do they struggle? Toyota's new dynamic force stuff is unparalleled for fuel efficiency as well as power. Case in point, compare the new Hyundai 3.5TT engine they will be using for Genesis and compare it to a Lexus LS500 3.5TT and there is no comparison.....design/tech/efficiency etc etc.....further, nobody aside from Lexus has any sales volumes when it comes to hybrid technology....so not sure why you say they are not innovating?

Did Lexus really say all? ALL Lexus models are going to have hybrid/PHEV/BEV?

 

That's fairy-tale, maybe with the pre refreshed F30. G20 is in another league, better brakes, superior transmission and chassis, the only slight edge the 3IS has is slightly better steering response depending on the individual. Neither the G70 nor the 3IS are better drivers car than this new 3. I owned an 2016 IS200T since new and returned with near 45k miles so I know how it drives. 3IS is no longer a contender in this group, leases for new IS350 can now be had under 400/month. I ventured to Lexus because the 3IS was better driver's cars to the pre-facelift F30.

Nobody is standing still in this game except Lexus, if Genesis can build a competitive car then Toyota sure can. Hyundai had to poach German engineers from Audi and BMW M chief to build a good car. Nobody talks about that but otherwise Genesis wouldn't have gotten the press it has although I think the car is over-hyped.

PS. I know we all sound like a broken record but it's because we want Lexus to succeed. Many of us 3IS owners left for BMW/Tesla and if Lexus had given us what we wanted in an updated IS or ISF we wouldn't have left. We still prefer Lexus service, we were forced to leave because Lexus chose to neglect us. I don't want to drive another IS200T, nor does my buddy Premier3IS nor EZZ and many more. That's why we left but still hoping Lexus builds the car we want to drive so we can return. 2nd refreshed of the ancient 3IS platform should not be celebrated, this is a failure. Which will ultimately hurt the brand.

 

BMW is certainly doing well, and the 3 Series has often been the class sales leader [by far] for many years with 142k in 2007, and another 142k in 2015.

BMW didn't just win the hearts - BMW also won the minds.
Sure their cars might not be the most reliable, but their cars were an outstanding all round package of: styling, space, performance, efficiency, handling, comfort, equipment, and durability.

BMW certainly does give a lot more options than Lexus.


Unfortunately, engineering is a compromize.
An F-22 Raptor can't be a Boeing 747, and vice versa.
Likewise a 3 Series can be small, compact, lightweight and agile - like the good old days in the 1980's.
Or the 3 Series can be larger and heavier like today with a 94 cu ft passenger compartment - hence the agility is lost.
Your beloved old 2012-19 F3 3 Series actually had a 96 cu ft passenger compartment - which is almost as roomy as current GS/5 Series' 99 cu ft compartments.

The larger the motor vehicle, the greater the Polar Moment of Inertia, hence the more compromized the agility.
This is where natnut's IS has a chance with dynamics, hence I must test drive your beloved G20 to really find out.

If both the 3 Series and IS stuck to the compact go-cart-like body sizes of the 1980's and early 2000's respectively, both would handle like go-karts, but both would be cramped and unrefined, and unable to sell in large volumes - because the mainstream market is never after sporty niches; sporty niches only ever sell in small numbers.

In a way, BMW does address this issue by making the 3 Series available in both standard 3 Series and sporty niche 4 Series.
However, they must differentiate the two body styles more to translate into dynamic differences.
For example, the 7 and 8 Series are much more different than the 3/4 Series.
This also holds true for the Mercedes S Class and their AMG GT 4 Door Gran Coupe.
Likewise, you may find that the E Class sedan and the CLS sedan handle very similarly, because there is not enough genuine differentiation between the two body styles - but at least Benz's midsizers come in two different body styles, I guess...

 

Absolutely. I hate to leave Lexus.

 

Japanese Review of the 2021 IS350 F-SPORT