Luxury sedan sales for March 2019
04-10-19, 07:38 AM
#136
Pole Position
The idea that luxury sedan buyers have moved over to SUVs is very credible but there are qualifiers to that. MB for eg. and its S class sales numbers may be down from their historic highs but look at where those numbers may have shifted to. The GLS has sold very well over the last several years and there's a new one debuting at the NY Auto Show in a few days.
MB's midsize/compact RWD SUVs GLE and GLC have great numbers but you don't see E and C class sales numbers slumping much. It shows that you can have your cake and eat it too. In fact MB did very well with its ML SUVs from the 90s onwward, which Benz now calls the GLE. The E class didn't feel much pain there despite the fact that there was an in house SUV competing for sales.
And look at BMW's X5 from its debut two decades ago; by its second year it posted numbers that kept going up and up. Yet the 5 series sedan kept selling very well through all this. It's probably a similar situation at Audi. Whatever's going on with luxe sedan numbers, the German trio are not feeling too bad about it. They've got other products that are very successful.
MB's midsize/compact RWD SUVs GLE and GLC have great numbers but you don't see E and C class sales numbers slumping much. It shows that you can have your cake and eat it too. In fact MB did very well with its ML SUVs from the 90s onwward, which Benz now calls the GLE. The E class didn't feel much pain there despite the fact that there was an in house SUV competing for sales.
And look at BMW's X5 from its debut two decades ago; by its second year it posted numbers that kept going up and up. Yet the 5 series sedan kept selling very well through all this. It's probably a similar situation at Audi. Whatever's going on with luxe sedan numbers, the German trio are not feeling too bad about it. They've got other products that are very successful.
04-10-19, 08:31 AM
#137
Pole Position
I would expect the 5LS to outsell the 4LS in 2012 given that 2013 LS with a completely new interior and big refresh on exterior was on the horizon at the time. Lots of buyers considering 2012 either waited for the '13 to come out or they outright bought the '13. Same thing for 2017 LS. Can't explain 2014-2016. Perhaps the question is if the 5LS outsold the 2007 LS.
04-10-19, 09:03 AM
#138
Lexus Fanatic
Might (?) be from switching from job to job. According to American IRS law (and the laws of many states), vehicle lease payments can be deducted from one's taxable income if the vehicle is used in certain aspects of conducting business in their job. A typical example, of course, is Steve, as a real estate agent, using his LS to shuttle potential clients around, showing them houses and property.
So you guys are basically saying that when I bought my BMW, I asked for 3 cashiers checks @ $9,999.99, and it took 40 min. to get them, with the SAR filed against me, that was a dumb move? It was, too much CBS Drama at the time (Without a Trace). I look back and say it's immaterial, I put 61% down, and I'm glad I did. That 61% would have done way better in the stock market, easy to say today, hard to predict in 12/06. That 61% was a check, saying I feel I can afford this, but if I were to do the M3, the downpay is only 49%, which in my book, is a no go. That's too little down on a relatively expensive vehicle.
My friend, he purchases vehicles (his co. does), and then his own leasing co., leases it to his own co., which is a division of himself. Interesting, huh? I asked him, isn't that like ******* **** *** ****?! To which he told me to gtfoh! lol Same thing with his jet. Point being at some level it makes sense to buy. But we're talking about tools needed to run the business.
Should an owner operator of a tractor lease it? Go on youtube and find out. A tractor is potentially 160k, and it's needed for their livelihoods.
Like anything else, there is a lot of pressure for everybody's story to stay the same. I would say a Suze or Dave Ramsay can speak until they are hoarse, the majority won't hear it.
edit: a lot has changed with the tax laws. I would say 15 years ago you coulda used a heloc before an auto loan. Starting in 2018, there are so so many who no longer need a schedule A, my household did not. What is there to even deduct? I have always found the deduction to be mythical, like a 2006 LS430 Ultra Luxury without navigation. It exists, but nobody has ever seen it. Seinfeld had an episode on the write-off. Take a senior citizen for example, that has a lot of deductions. What are they deducting from? So let's say you have a business that's not making much money, but drive the big S600. Your co. is leasing it. How much sense does that really make?
Last edited by Johnhav430; 04-10-19 at 09:08 AM.
04-10-19, 09:23 AM
#139
Lexus Fanatic
There's so much beating around the bush that the very notion of driving something you can't afford is all but gone. That was a very big topic 15 years ago, no longer. But it's pretty amazing when the argument is stated that only a fool would ever pay for anything lol That one makes me scratch my head. Car. Depreciates. Never "invest" in one, which really means pay for one other than through rent.
So you guys are basically saying that when I bought my BMW, I asked for 3 cashiers checks @ $9,999.99, and it took 40 min. to get them, with the SAR filed against me, that was a dumb move? It was, too much CBS Drama at the time (Without a Trace). I look back and say it's immaterial, I put 61% down, and I'm glad I did. That 61% would have done way better in the stock market, easy to say today, hard to predict in 12/06. That 61% was a check, saying I feel I can afford this, but if I were to do the M3, the downpay is only 49%, which in my book, is a no go. That's too little down on a relatively expensive vehicle.
My friend, he purchases vehicles (his co. does), and then his own leasing co., leases it to his own co., which is a division of himself. Interesting, huh? I asked him, isn't that like ******* **** *** ****?! To which he told me to gtfoh! lol Same thing with his jet. Point being at some level it makes sense to buy. But we're talking about tools needed to run the business.
Should an owner operator of a tractor lease it? Go on youtube and find out. A tractor is potentially 160k, and it's needed for their livelihoods.
Like anything else, there is a lot of pressure for everybody's story to stay the same. I would say a Suze or Dave Ramsay can speak until they are hoarse, the majority won't hear it.
edit: a lot has changed with the tax laws. I would say 15 years ago you coulda used a heloc before an auto loan. Starting in 2018, there are so so many who no longer need a schedule A, my household did not. What is there to even deduct? I have always found the deduction to be mythical, like a 2006 LS430 Ultra Luxury without navigation. It exists, but nobody has ever seen it. Seinfeld had an episode on the write-off. Take a senior citizen for example, that has a lot of deductions. What are they deducting from? So let's say you have a business that's not making much money, but drive the big S600. Your co. is leasing it. How much sense does that really make?
So you guys are basically saying that when I bought my BMW, I asked for 3 cashiers checks @ $9,999.99, and it took 40 min. to get them, with the SAR filed against me, that was a dumb move? It was, too much CBS Drama at the time (Without a Trace). I look back and say it's immaterial, I put 61% down, and I'm glad I did. That 61% would have done way better in the stock market, easy to say today, hard to predict in 12/06. That 61% was a check, saying I feel I can afford this, but if I were to do the M3, the downpay is only 49%, which in my book, is a no go. That's too little down on a relatively expensive vehicle.
My friend, he purchases vehicles (his co. does), and then his own leasing co., leases it to his own co., which is a division of himself. Interesting, huh? I asked him, isn't that like ******* **** *** ****?! To which he told me to gtfoh! lol Same thing with his jet. Point being at some level it makes sense to buy. But we're talking about tools needed to run the business.
Should an owner operator of a tractor lease it? Go on youtube and find out. A tractor is potentially 160k, and it's needed for their livelihoods.
Like anything else, there is a lot of pressure for everybody's story to stay the same. I would say a Suze or Dave Ramsay can speak until they are hoarse, the majority won't hear it.
edit: a lot has changed with the tax laws. I would say 15 years ago you coulda used a heloc before an auto loan. Starting in 2018, there are so so many who no longer need a schedule A, my household did not. What is there to even deduct? I have always found the deduction to be mythical, like a 2006 LS430 Ultra Luxury without navigation. It exists, but nobody has ever seen it. Seinfeld had an episode on the write-off. Take a senior citizen for example, that has a lot of deductions. What are they deducting from? So let's say you have a business that's not making much money, but drive the big S600. Your co. is leasing it. How much sense does that really make?
Leasing is a hot button topic on here and will eventually get this thread closed. . I am against anyone making money off my money, especially a car company. I would rather be fiscally responsible and drive something I can afford to pay at all once than to take a loan and let someone make money off of me.
I am not sure if your BMW example was good or bad, it is very confusing to follow that post. If you could not pay for it in cash, then lots of people would say you cannot afford
IMO, cash is always king
ps: those who have true wealth, they acquire things in ways that are the least costly to them. For example, if I had a choice between. 0% financing or cash payment, I would take the free loan of 0%. At some point in Canada, the Lexus LS500 was being offered for $25K off for cash customers. Right now a Lexus LX is like 5% finance rate. Toyota/Lexus products were made for the long haul, why buy or lease one just to get rid of it quickly.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 04-10-19 at 09:37 AM.
04-10-19, 09:38 AM
#140
Lexus Fanatic
Does not matter if it is a depreciating asset. You still have an asset, even if it goes down in value. Once it is paid, it’s yours and for average people (let’s just say those who buy cars at the average price point) they no longer need to worry about the primary means of getting around an having to pay for it. There is no money being made off of their payments, there is no preying on those with bad credit etc etc by having high loan rates.
Leasing is a hot button topic on here and will eventually get this thread closed. . I am against anyone making money off my money, especially a car company. I would rather be fiscally responsible and drive something I can afford to pay at all once than to take a loan and let someone make money off of me.
I am not sure if your BMW example was good or bad, it is very confusing to follow that post. If you could not pay for it in cash, then lots of people would say you cannot afford
IMO, cash is always king
ps: those who have true wealth, they acquire things in ways that are the least costly to them.
Leasing is a hot button topic on here and will eventually get this thread closed. . I am against anyone making money off my money, especially a car company. I would rather be fiscally responsible and drive something I can afford to pay at all once than to take a loan and let someone make money off of me.
I am not sure if your BMW example was good or bad, it is very confusing to follow that post. If you could not pay for it in cash, then lots of people would say you cannot afford
IMO, cash is always king
ps: those who have true wealth, they acquire things in ways that are the least costly to them.
But generally speaking, I say a car shouldn't be more than a 36 mo. loan, it should be 50% or more down, payment should never be over $400/mo., and it should not be more than 25% of your gross annual salary. I broke my own rule because when I bought the BMW in 12/06, its pricetag was > 25% of my salary. And let's be honest, with car prices going up, and our appetites staying constant, the 25% rule probably doesn't work today.
The 0% thing if it exists today, again is a teaser imho to get a person to spend more. And I learned the hard way, with a 0% credit card--no brainer--pay yourself back the monthly balance, for 15 mos, to your savings. Then, 15 mos. from now, take the money out, and payoff the balance, close the account. Easier said than done. Just somehow, many things today seem to supplement one's disposable income, and just disappears, leaving the debt.
lol I hear you confusing and off topic posts is what gets me banned from most forums and to think I took AP English way back when--sad
04-10-19, 10:58 AM
#141
Pole Position
Thread Starter
It did start with the 4LS, given that it went about 4 years too long, but it will be amplified with the 5LS. Jan-Mar sales this year are the third lowest in the history of the LS. Only 2016 and 2017 were worse. And the 5LS is virtually brand new. Those were year 10 and 11 of the 4LS. And March 2016 actually outsold March 2019. That's really unbelievable at this point.
04-10-19, 11:14 AM
#142
Lead Lap
Leasing vs Buying is different discussion all together. Each has its pros and cons, and value that only the end user can figure out for themselves.
Now back to the original topic, big power sedans, usually need attractive terms, even if its detrimental to the company. Look at the 7 series, those things would bring in a crowd each year, since their leasing terms were incredible. Buy rates not so much. Slowly however BMW reeled back on those incentives, but still. Dont really see the same support on LSes. The LS selling price now are extremely favorable, which I guess is LFS being more safe as a company. Leases=lease returns, and the headache of selling the vehicles that depreciate like a tank. Buying not soo much, once you sign on the dotted line, Lexus is done.
Now back to the original topic, big power sedans, usually need attractive terms, even if its detrimental to the company. Look at the 7 series, those things would bring in a crowd each year, since their leasing terms were incredible. Buy rates not so much. Slowly however BMW reeled back on those incentives, but still. Dont really see the same support on LSes. The LS selling price now are extremely favorable, which I guess is LFS being more safe as a company. Leases=lease returns, and the headache of selling the vehicles that depreciate like a tank. Buying not soo much, once you sign on the dotted line, Lexus is done.
04-10-19, 11:47 AM
#143
Lexus Fanatic
S Class: 1,204
7 Series: 988
LS500: 457
A8: 261
G90: 159
Second worst March sales for the LS since it was introduced. Even 2016 was better. Only March 2017 was worse, and that was when a new LS was being promised in the fall. The news might even be worse for Audi, but their boards can deal with that.
During the 430 years, Lexus was killing both the S Class and the 7-Series. For instance, in March 2005, the LS430 outsold the 7 Series and S Class COMBINED. You can say the market has changed, but that's not what happened to the LS. The 7 and S numbers are still very comparable to what they were in 2005, being just <200 units difference. (S: 1,384 and 7: 1,110) But the LS numbers fell from 2,537 to 457. That is catastrophic.
While it's true the market has changed, the reality is that big luxury sedan buyers just left Lexus. MB and BMW kept their customers because they gave their customer what they wanted. Lexus decided to give their customers what S Class and BMW owners wanted, and their customers left.
7 Series: 988
LS500: 457
A8: 261
G90: 159
Second worst March sales for the LS since it was introduced. Even 2016 was better. Only March 2017 was worse, and that was when a new LS was being promised in the fall. The news might even be worse for Audi, but their boards can deal with that.
During the 430 years, Lexus was killing both the S Class and the 7-Series. For instance, in March 2005, the LS430 outsold the 7 Series and S Class COMBINED. You can say the market has changed, but that's not what happened to the LS. The 7 and S numbers are still very comparable to what they were in 2005, being just <200 units difference. (S: 1,384 and 7: 1,110) But the LS numbers fell from 2,537 to 457. That is catastrophic.
While it's true the market has changed, the reality is that big luxury sedan buyers just left Lexus. MB and BMW kept their customers because they gave their customer what they wanted. Lexus decided to give their customers what S Class and BMW owners wanted, and their customers left.
04-10-19, 01:04 PM
#144
Lexus Fanatic
For North America, yes. What are the worldwide sales numbers for the LS500 compared to 2007 for the LS460? The new LS500 seems to me at least to be designed for all world markets in mind, not the just the US.
04-10-19, 02:13 PM
#145
Lexus Champion
Leasing vs Buying is different discussion all together. Each has its pros and cons, and value that only the end user can figure out for themselves.
Now back to the original topic, big power sedans, usually need attractive terms, even if its detrimental to the company. Look at the 7 series, those things would bring in a crowd each year, since their leasing terms were incredible. Buy rates not so much. Slowly however BMW reeled back on those incentives, but still. Dont really see the same support on LSes. The LS selling price now are extremely favorable, which I guess is LFS being more safe as a company. Leases=lease returns, and the headache of selling the vehicles that depreciate like a tank. Buying not soo much, once you sign on the dotted line, Lexus is done.
Now back to the original topic, big power sedans, usually need attractive terms, even if its detrimental to the company. Look at the 7 series, those things would bring in a crowd each year, since their leasing terms were incredible. Buy rates not so much. Slowly however BMW reeled back on those incentives, but still. Dont really see the same support on LSes. The LS selling price now are extremely favorable, which I guess is LFS being more safe as a company. Leases=lease returns, and the headache of selling the vehicles that depreciate like a tank. Buying not soo much, once you sign on the dotted line, Lexus is done.
04-10-19, 02:21 PM
#146
Lexus Fanatic
Did I miss something and inflate the lease cost?
For what is worth: I used Toyota Land Cruiser because it is the only Toyota with no options:
From Toyota.com lease calcuator
Lease per month $1364, X 12 months = $16,368, X 10 years = $163,680, you get to drive 120,000 miles over than lifespan
Buy, MSRP: $85,015 KBB: 2009 model $21,787 at 120,000 miles.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 04-10-19 at 02:26 PM.
04-10-19, 02:31 PM
#147
Yeah, I already pointed that out in my previous long post. Looking at raw sales numbers between the S Class and LS won't tell you anything when the overall market has changed. Gotta look at the market shares of the big three since they are the lone consistencies. The 4LS was losing market share after 2008 and it went really down after the Panamera and Model S showed up. The S Class maintained market share and the 7 Series dropped a little only.
I don't care if Lexus does minor refreshes, the 4LS struggled in sales after the first two years. Let me remind you that the 5LS in 2018 outsold the 4LS in 2012 and 2014-17. The refresh in 2013 helped, but it market share loss trend started with the 4LS, not the 5LS. If you want to complain that Lexus should make dramatic refreshes (new engines), I can agree with you, but we all know why Lexus is so conservative about new technology.
I don't care if Lexus does minor refreshes, the 4LS struggled in sales after the first two years. Let me remind you that the 5LS in 2018 outsold the 4LS in 2012 and 2014-17. The refresh in 2013 helped, but it market share loss trend started with the 4LS, not the 5LS. If you want to complain that Lexus should make dramatic refreshes (new engines), I can agree with you, but we all know why Lexus is so conservative about new technology.
2007 35,226 [Full Calendar Year Debut]
2008 20,255
2009 11,334
2010 11,675 [Minor Refresh]
2011 9,568
2012 8,860
2013 10,727 [Major Refresh]
2014 8,559
2015 7,165
2016 5,515
2017 4,094
S Class
2006 30,886 [Full Calendar Year Debut]
2007 26,081
2008 17,787
2009 11,199
2010 13,608 [Major Refresh]
2011 12,258
2012 12,587
BOTH 4LS and S Class sales dropped dramatically after 2008 - thanks to the Global Financial Crisis GFC.
In 2010, the S Class had a major refresh immediately to sustain itself only until 2012.
4LS didn't get a major refresh until a very late 2013, and by then it was way too late.
Furthermore, this very late 2013 4LS major refresh had to carry on for a whopping 5 years inclusive till 2017!
Thus 4LS has done very well considering the circumstances.
That the all new 2018 5LS outsold the ageing almost 12 year model cycle 4LS towards the end in 2012 & 2014-17 is totally unremarkable!
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 04-10-19 at 03:02 PM.
04-10-19, 02:36 PM
#148
Lead Lap
I posted this in another thread.
Did I miss something and inflate the lease cost?
For what is worth: I used Toyota Land Cruiser because it is the only Toyota with no options:
From Toyota.com lease calcuator
Lease per month $1364, X 12 months = $16,368, X 10 years = $163,680, you get to drive 120,000 miles over than lifespan
Buy, MSRP: $85,015 KBB: 2009 model $21,787 at 120,000 miles.
Did I miss something and inflate the lease cost?
For what is worth: I used Toyota Land Cruiser because it is the only Toyota with no options:
From Toyota.com lease calcuator
Lease per month $1364, X 12 months = $16,368, X 10 years = $163,680, you get to drive 120,000 miles over than lifespan
Buy, MSRP: $85,015 KBB: 2009 model $21,787 at 120,000 miles.
04-10-19, 02:50 PM
#150
Lease payments are expenses. You pay for the use of something.
Purchase payments pay for assets (equity). You pay -- invest -- in something that has value, but a car is a depreciating asset (value continually drops). As you continue to make payments (the cumulative value of payments increases), the value of the asset depreciates, so that at some point, both lines may intersect and the payments you have made is greater than the worth of the asset.
That is why some people advocate that you pay (invest) in an appreciating asset but rent / lease depreciating assets.
Purchase payments pay for assets (equity). You pay -- invest -- in something that has value, but a car is a depreciating asset (value continually drops). As you continue to make payments (the cumulative value of payments increases), the value of the asset depreciates, so that at some point, both lines may intersect and the payments you have made is greater than the worth of the asset.
That is why some people advocate that you pay (invest) in an appreciating asset but rent / lease depreciating assets.
Does not matter if it is a depreciating asset. You still have an asset, even if it goes down in value. Once it is paid, it’s yours and for average people (let’s just say those who buy cars at the average price point) they no longer need to worry about the primary means of getting around an having to pay for it. There is no money being made off of their payments, there is no preying on those with bad credit etc etc by having high loan rates.
Leasing is a hot button topic on here and will eventually get this thread closed. . I am against anyone making money off my money, especially a car company. I would rather be fiscally responsible and drive something I can afford to pay at all once than to take a loan and let someone make money off of me.
I am not sure if your BMW example was good or bad, it is very confusing to follow that post. If you could not pay for it in cash, then lots of people would say you cannot afford
IMO, cash is always king
ps: those who have true wealth, they acquire things in ways that are the least costly to them. For example, if I had a choice between. 0% financing or cash payment, I would take the free loan of 0%. At some point in Canada, the Lexus LS500 was being offered for $25K off for cash customers. Right now a Lexus LX is like 5% finance rate. Toyota/Lexus products were made for the long haul, why buy or lease one just to get rid of it quickly.
Leasing is a hot button topic on here and will eventually get this thread closed. . I am against anyone making money off my money, especially a car company. I would rather be fiscally responsible and drive something I can afford to pay at all once than to take a loan and let someone make money off of me.
I am not sure if your BMW example was good or bad, it is very confusing to follow that post. If you could not pay for it in cash, then lots of people would say you cannot afford
IMO, cash is always king
ps: those who have true wealth, they acquire things in ways that are the least costly to them. For example, if I had a choice between. 0% financing or cash payment, I would take the free loan of 0%. At some point in Canada, the Lexus LS500 was being offered for $25K off for cash customers. Right now a Lexus LX is like 5% finance rate. Toyota/Lexus products were made for the long haul, why buy or lease one just to get rid of it quickly.
Leasing has its pros and cons.
Leasing has specific advantages. For example:
1) Leasing is an advantage for the very rich so that they can automatically trade-in for a new model every 3.5 to 7.0 years etc.
2) Leasing also has advantages if by the time the leasing term has expired, the agreed value is much higher than the market value! Then the lesee would immediately give the vehicle back to the lessor, because in effect, the leasing company has been ripped off with inadequate monthly instalments which inadequately compensate for vehicle depreciation.
3) A new business could lease a motor vehicle, because if the new business goes bankrupt etc, the leased vehicle could be easily sold off.
4) A lease/loan can be beneficial so that any remaining available cash can be immediately used for other purposes like buying another property etc.
I did say previously that horses for courses and each to their own.