I'm sure a lot as to do with what part of the country I live in, however, no one that I've spoke "cars" with (that I know) is really willing to pay a premium for American vehicles. In fact, I feel like their initial price starts high because the American manufactures ending having to heavily discount them to move them. Maybe I'm sorely misguided in my thinking, but that seems to be the strategy to me - they always seem to have the largest discounts at most times.

FWIW, I prefer the Explorer's styling over a lot of others in its segment but, personally, I just feel like something is missing at the asking price. I assume, however, that Ford will continue to refine and improve it over the current generations life cycle.

 

You seem to be really bothered by the mention that not all 3-row crossover were designed for maximum seating space in the rear, some are designed for occasional use. Case in point, the Explorer is a max 7 seat crossover. (Toyota and Hyundai go to 8) And the further you go up the price ladder, the Explorer becomes a 7 seat vehicle but remains a 6 seat vehicle for a lot of people. Slightly different demographics Ford is appealing to, but you have already said you disagree. Not all manufactures designed an 8 passenger. Some went a different route and want driving experience to be more important and you see this with the inclusion of the 400hp Explorer. Everyone and their mother would go for the lower hp, less EPA rated, cheaper Hyundai that has a very well-designed interior and good interior materials and far better value with a longer warranty.......but some manufacturers are offering something different, in the case of Ford, a midsize crossover with 6 passengers in many trim levels, with the option of turbo, and 400 hp. I think I have laid out the rationale quite well as per why some of the 3 rows crossover are designed differently. Both Ford and Toyota have other 3 row alternatives which they still want to sell, this allows both to dial in a more defined design and experience that does not have to be so large in the rear or seat 8 in the case of Ford where you can get the model with just 6 seats, 2 in each row.

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The average price transactions for Ford are higher than the industry average. They are higher than Toyota and higher than Hyundai who specialize in selling more lower/medium-priced cars than top-spec crossovers.

 

I like the Explorer based on looks, and the fact that it is the de facto cop car. Such as the rear end technology I heard about, that it can sustain a 50 mph rear end collision. I have to admit when I saw one up close it was more impressive in my mind. Also I like the Ecoboost numbers.

The Aviator I liked up close, but again that's not bread and butter based on price.

There were actually 2 STs in our parking garage when we were still going in to the office 3 months ago, and the numbers are pretty outrageous on the ST

 

Please stop spewing supposed data points that are out of context. Ford has high average transaction prices because the prices for pickup trucks has gotten astronomically high. And yes, they sell those by the.. wait for it. truck load. That is perhaps the ONE segment where people are willing to "pay a premium for American vehicles" it is absolutely not true in other segments.

And as Steve pointed out, American brand consumers are now heavily ingrained on high "discounts" from MSRP. So yes, easily $10K off on the $60K MSRP Explorers.

 

There is no need to be so rude. Just going with MSRP prices. If you want to plug in discounts, that is your prerogative It is fact, that there is a huge pool of buyers that will never consider a Japanese or Korean model, there is also a huge pool of buyers that like Ford, they are diehards and love their interiors. I don’t care for them. When buying an Explorer, you are getting 300 standard HP, more engines options than just one, a 10 speed, turbos etc. Engines are a cut above some of the max HP ratings compared to the Ascent, Atlas, CX9, Pilot and Telluride. There is more than just third row space in this segment of cars. Explorer has an option for just 6 seats, which is quite refreshing to see.

I personally believe their will be an additional larger crossover from Toyota that will slot above the Highlander and fit in below the Sequoia at some point.

 

Cheap gas in the U.S. has obviously made large pickups even more enticing (at many stations, now, you can get regular for less than $2.00). And, even over and above the fact that the Big Three traditionally make more profit on larger trucks than they do on any other vehicle-segment, the recent demand for them (until the coronavirus struck) allowed them to raise the prices even further.

 

I'm not bothered by anything, you're the one facepalming and exasperating across multiple threads that "not everybody needs a third row" anytime anybody discusses a third row. And again, the Explorer has one of the larger third rows, so the argument that it was designed not to prioritize third row space doesn't make much sense. You don't like third rows, we get it.

And also, like how poor space efficiency isn't a designed in attribute in the Highlander, poor build quality is not intentional in the Explorer because "Ford customers want that". Thats silly. Ford simply needs to do a better job putting the Explorer together. People don't say "I wish this vehicle wasn't so well built, I like some misaligned panels and gaps"

Ford is assigning a premium to their RWD architecture and their more solid feel and better power. Clearly, to most of us that premium doesn't compute.
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This is important, you're throwing around industry terns but you don't actually have the data that those terms refer to nor are you using them right.

"Average transaction price" is an industry defined term that describes what a manufacturer's average transaction is, meaning the dollar figure where their vehicles actually sell. It has nothing to do with MSRP. You don't use MSRPs to determine a company's ATP, discounts are a part of that number by the definition of what that number is. Thats a industry figure you would have to have inside information to actually know.

So if you're talking about MSRP, use the term "MSRP" don't misuse and industry term that means something else.

 

Your post says what people would "pay" and transaction prices. People do not pay MSRP. MSRP's weight this even MORE heavily in favor of Ford and Detroit where trucks have some of the largest discounts on the market. MSRP's mean nearly nothing in this day and age where average discounts have reached over 10% of MSRP. You're just trying to grasp for whatever sliver of data might help support you.

I never said there was no pool of buyers that won't consider a Japanese or Korean model. But catering to just your own pool of buyers can only last so long in this day where we see, outside of full size pickup trucks, customers more open to other brands than before, especially since there are largely no horrendous new cars on the market, save for some Mitsubishis.

Higher numbers on spec sheets might get you initial eyeballs, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Yes the Explorer has a 10 speed automatic, but that doesn't mean it's a better transmission than an 8 speed found in many competitors.

 

Hell, I would much prefer a 5 or 6 speed transmission. I have never driven a car with an 7+ speed transmission I thought shifted well all the time, my current vehicles included.

And I was offered $10k off a 2020 Explorer Platinum with zero negotiation. That was the starting point, so really this is a low $50k vehicle not a $60k vehicle, which makes a lot more sense.

 

Part of that problem, of course, is that the Koreans, unlike the Japanese, have yet to introduce a true American-style BOF truck to the American market.

That 10-speed was done pretty much for CAFE reasons, as fuel-mileage rules, unlike the past, now affect at least some trucks as well, though not as strict as for passenger-cars.

 

I see it differently. Ford and Toyota will not be growing their two crossover sales numbers based on the third row size. So Toyota is offering very class exclusive fuel efficiency with their hybrid and that is where the growth is going to come from. Same with Ford, a 6 seat three row with 400hp and RWD will never appeal to the Hyundai buyers that will just buy that care anyways based on price, value and warranty. My prediction is that Toyota will have higher growth in the segment with the inclusion of the Hybrid Highlander as a well as the sport XSE model over the Palisade in the second year for each model.

 

You're forgetting only the range topping Platinum and ST have the 400hp engine. Most Explorers actually are only available in 4cyl or hybrids. I would guess maybe only 5% of Explorers are Platinums or STs.

Those models likely aren't cross shopped with the Palisade/Telluride or the Highlander, but the bulk of Explorers are. An XLT or Limited Explorer (90-95% of Explorers) comes with a 2.2L turbo 4 cyl that gets 300 hp and 310 lb/ft of torque. Fuel economy 21 city 28 highway. Pretty comparable.

Thats the only reason why for me I would only consider the Platinum in an Explorer, I don't like Hybrids and I want a V6. Otherwise I would look at a Limited to keep the price more in line.

 

I didn't think you would ever say something like that.

The Toyota and Ford powertrains are superior to the Hyundai. It is very hard to criticize Hyundai on this forum, but less power, less MPG, less torque, $500 more per 5/year in fuel costs, Hyundai is behind....

 

The Platinum and ST Models, XLT and Limited Explorers absolutely compete with the Highlander and Palisade, Highlander, etc.

The Platinum and ST models are much more expensive and higher performance, but the XLT and Limited trims aren't.

 

Okay. I am moving on...thanks for the discussion.