Notices
Car Chat General discussion about Lexus, other auto manufacturers and automotive news.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by: Innova

All wheel drive, four-wheel drive, is it really necessary?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 05:39 PM
  #106  
Och's Avatar
Och
Lexus Champion
20 Year Member
Photogenic
Photoriffic
Shutterbug
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 17,035
Likes: 247
From: NY
Default

Originally Posted by Htony
RWD with open differential? I don't think so. IMO, AWD vehicle with winter tires will give better safety margin. But most of all, it all depends on driver skill and terrain. Remember when ABS first showed up pro drivers hated it. I did not like ABS on my tow truck pulling more than 3 ton weight camping trailer. Even monkeys fall from tree some times.
RWD with LSD and without active stability control can actually be more dangerous than RWD with open differentials, especially on slick roads. And of course, modern stability systems have what's called e-LSD, by applying brakes to transfer torque side to side.
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 05:40 PM
  #107  
mmarshall's Avatar
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
Community Builder
Community Influencer
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,511
Likes: 261
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Default

Originally Posted by Htony
Remember when ABS first showed up pro drivers hated it. I did not like ABS on my tow truck pulling more than 3 ton weight camping trailer. Even monkeys fall from tree some times.
I still don't particularly like ABS, either. True, it helps keep the tires rolling instead of locking up and sliding, which gives you steering control (assuming the tires themselves still have any grip)...but, IMO, it seems like the stopping distances themselves are longer.

One good thing, though, that DID come from ABS, was that the basic ABS sensor system made electronic traction-aids and stability systems possible. Stability systems have prevented a lot of accidents....especially among classic oversteer/spin-out cars like the Porsche 911. The ABS sensors, in some cases also help some AWD systems by insuring that certain wheels don't spin.

Last edited by mmarshall; Jan 7, 2018 at 05:45 PM.
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 05:44 PM
  #108  
SW17LS's Avatar
SW17LS
Lexus Fanatic
Active Streak: 60 Days
Loved
Community Favorite
Top Answer: 1
 
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,823
Likes: 4,101
From: Maryland
Default

Originally Posted by mmarshall
I still don't particularly like ABS, either. True, it helps keep the tires rolling instead of locking up and sliding, which gives you steering control (assuming the tires themselves still have any grip)...but, IMO, it seems like the stopping distances themselves are longer.
Except that you can look up stopping distances for cars with ABS and without ABS, and they're actually shorter, not longer.
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 05:51 PM
  #109  
mmarshall's Avatar
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
Community Builder
Community Influencer
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,511
Likes: 261
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Default

Originally Posted by SW15LS
Except that you can look up stopping distances for cars with ABS and without ABS, and they're actually shorter, not longer.

Perhaps. I haven't gone out and actually measured them, myself. On several of the vehicles I've owned with ABS, it felt, even with the wheels still rolling, like the car was simply taking forever to stop on really slick stuff, whereas standard brakes often locked the wheels but felt like they stopped shorter. Maybe some of it is just mental, or perceived. Either way, with or without them, I give the car in front of me PLENTY of room.....only idiots tailgate on slick surfaces.
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 05:59 PM
  #110  
SW17LS's Avatar
SW17LS
Lexus Fanatic
Active Streak: 60 Days
Loved
Community Favorite
Top Answer: 1
 
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,823
Likes: 4,101
From: Maryland
Default

On really slick stuff thats one thing, but in general ABS absolutely shortens stopping distances.
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 06:00 PM
  #111  
Toys4RJill's Avatar
Toys4RJill
Lexus Fanatic
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 35,481
Likes: 385
From: ON/NY
Default

Originally Posted by mmarshall
Perhaps. I haven't gone out and actually measured them, myself. On several of the vehicles I've owned with ABS, it felt, even with the wheels still rolling, like the car was simply taking forever to stop on really slick stuff, whereas standard brakes often locked the wheels but felt like they stopped shorter. Maybe some of it is just mental, or perceived. Either way, with or without them, I give the car in front of me PLENTY of room.....only idiots tailgate on slick surfaces.
How often do the ABS on your cars engage?
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 06:03 PM
  #112  
SW17LS's Avatar
SW17LS
Lexus Fanatic
Active Streak: 60 Days
Loved
Community Favorite
Top Answer: 1
 
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,823
Likes: 4,101
From: Maryland
Default

Remember too, ABS was not designed to shorten stopping distances. The point is to prevent wheel lockup so you can maintain steering control of the vehicle.
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 06:16 PM
  #113  
mmarshall's Avatar
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
Community Builder
Community Influencer
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 94,511
Likes: 261
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Default

Originally Posted by SW15LS
Remember too, ABS was not designed to shorten stopping distances. The point is to prevent wheel lockup so you can maintain steering control of the vehicle.
Oh...definitely. Couldn't agree more. That part is not in question.

Wiki, BTW, agrees with me on needing more space to stop with ABS on snow and ice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

however, on loose gravel or snow-covered surfaces, ABS can significantly increase braking distance, although still improving vehicle steering control.[2]
[3]
[4]
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 08:03 PM
  #114  
UDel's Avatar
UDel
Lexus Fanatic
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 12,269
Likes: 296
From: ------
Default

Originally Posted by SW15LS
Again, having owned similar cars in RWD, FWD and AWD, there is no question that AWD is the superior powertrain layout when it comes to traction and drivability in snow and ice. No question whatsoever.

Yes tires are really important, but if you standardize tires, again the AWD is going to stand out as superior. My experience comes from cars driven on very similar all season tires, my AWD GS and LS are very drivable on all season grand touring tires in the snow, my RWD LS sedans were not at all, and my FWD ES sedans were in between the two. I'm sure my incoming RWD LS460L will be significantly poorer in the snow than my outgoing AWD LS460.

If I put winter tires on my RWD LS460L, I'm sure it would be just as drivable as my AWD LS460 on all seasons or moreso, but as I've said my climate doesn't lend itself to that being worthwhile, and if you put the same winter tires on the AWD LS460, it would handle better than the RWD LS460.
I would try to put the best all season tire on your RWD LS as you can for snow rating, I think you will be fine in the mostly moderate snow Baltimore gets with a good snow rated all season tire like Continental Extreme Contact DWS 06 or something like that.
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 08:14 PM
  #115  
SW17LS's Avatar
SW17LS
Lexus Fanatic
Active Streak: 60 Days
Loved
Community Favorite
Top Answer: 1
 
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 68,823
Likes: 4,101
From: Maryland
Default

Yeah I’m sure I’ll be fine. Going to put a set of the Pirelli P7s on there.
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 08:17 PM
  #116  
Och's Avatar
Och
Lexus Champion
20 Year Member
Photogenic
Photoriffic
Shutterbug
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 17,035
Likes: 247
From: NY
Default

With snow tires it is very important to make sure that they aren't worn out. Modern tires (not only snow, but performance and even all season tires) wear out very quickly. For instance I had Firestone Winterfoce 16" tires that I bought for my Lexus back in 2009, and when my Lexus was destroyed by Sandy I put them on my Mazda 3 that I had, they lasted until 2015 and still had good amount of thread on them. I disposed them because I no longer had a vehicle that they would fit. My X1 also had 17" Winterforce tires, and they lasted for 3 years with almost no noticeable wear. They were also extremely durable, hitting many potholes without damage. Unfortunately they are not available in all sizes, and I couldn't get them for my m235i, and got Blizzak WS80 instead. They barely lasted two seasons before rear tires were worn out.
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 08:27 PM
  #117  
Htony's Avatar
Htony
Lexus Champion
5 Year Member
 
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 135
From: AB
Default

Originally Posted by UDel
I would try to put the best all season tire on your RWD LS as you can for snow rating, I think you will be fine in the mostly moderate snow Baltimore gets with a good snow rated all season tire like Continental Extreme Contact DWS 06 or something like that.
Now there is new breed of tires called "all weather tire". I heard some of it's brand does very good in the winter.
Reply
Old Jan 7, 2018 | 08:34 PM
  #118  
Och's Avatar
Och
Lexus Champion
20 Year Member
Photogenic
Photoriffic
Shutterbug
iTrader: (3)
 
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 17,035
Likes: 247
From: NY
Default

Originally Posted by Htony
Now there is new breed of tires called "all weather tire". I heard some of it's brand does very good in the winter.
Michelin Crossclimate tires, apparently they are very good under all conditions, but they are not yet available in the US.
Reply
Old Jan 8, 2018 | 05:31 AM
  #119  
Johnhav430's Avatar
Johnhav430
Lexus Test Driver
5 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,578
Likes: 391
From: PA
Default

Originally Posted by mmarshall
I still don't particularly like ABS, either. True, it helps keep the tires rolling instead of locking up and sliding, which gives you steering control (assuming the tires themselves still have any grip)...but, IMO, it seems like the stopping distances themselves are longer.

One good thing, though, that DID come from ABS, was that the basic ABS sensor system made electronic traction-aids and stability systems possible. Stability systems have prevented a lot of accidents....especially among classic oversteer/spin-out cars like the Porsche 911. The ABS sensors, in some cases also help some AWD systems by insuring that certain wheels don't spin.
That's an interesting perspective. What I learned about myself, is that I instinctively mash my foot to the floor in a panic situation, even though I was taught to pump the brakes.

When I did the Porsche event with professional drivers, they stated you are free to push any button you like in the vehicles. The one button you are not allowed to touch is the one for PSM. If you press this button, the entire event will be shut down, and you can explain to the other 15 participants why the event is shut down for the day.

I have taken the DSC off one level on my 335, to make sure I could do it (say I were stuck in snow etc.). But I took it seriously, I did not take it off completely (idiots on the forum have wrecked their cars, we can all laugh as much as we want since it's not our car, but there has to be a reason it occured). When stuck I pressed snow on the LS430, and as I had suspected, it seemed to be useless.
Reply
Old Jan 8, 2018 | 05:35 AM
  #120  
Johnhav430's Avatar
Johnhav430
Lexus Test Driver
5 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 8,578
Likes: 391
From: PA
Default

Originally Posted by Htony
Now there is new breed of tires called "all weather tire". I heard some of it's brand does very good in the winter.
do they get a snowflake and M+S designation on the sidewall? Sounds like a gimmick to me. Wonder if they are allowed in Germany and Québec during the winter.
Reply



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:58 PM.