Originally Posted by MattyG

^^^ Interesting comparisons. Sometimes people who have a lot of money will pay for things that provide less real world value as opposed to perceived value. And 4WD vehicles/trucks are no exception. I liken it to people who go buy Arctic expedition parkas because, you know, the explorers use them on Mount Everest, so I must need them too, usually in that bright red/orange color with some sort of logo patch on the left shoulder.

Originally Posted by MattyG

If you look at the short video clip that the OP started the thread with, you can see, that Ford Explorer is nearly out of control because of the excessive throttle application to make the rear wheels break loose. The rear wheels break and then the driver has to nearly over-correct with aggressive counter steer to make sure he doesn't run to the outside of the turn and then nearly runs into the building's wall. This is what some of the worst SUV drivers will do because that's the so-called, "I'm invincible" driving attitude.

Originally Posted by Stroock639

nearly is the key word there lol, he had been practicing making that turn a few times before i started recording, and the building wasn't as close as it looks

Originally Posted by Htony

Processing power nowadays is in Nano second range. When I was a loyal Acura MDX driver SH-AWD was very good which now evolved to single clutch system from that of double. Any how, we can say 4WD, AWD(part time 4WD). My wife's old Suzuki CUV had a switch with 3 positions. FWD, Auto, Lock(meaning differential lock; with a warning never use it on dry pavement) Again it means it can be FWD or AWD or
part time 4WD. In my family, wife drives Mercedes GLA with 4Matic, son has few BMW vehicles M3, 328iX, M235; open differential with RWD. My Audi SQ5 with Quattro. We tested them ourselves on a wide open deep snow covered field all with good brand name winter tires. Merecedes had Michelin Xice 3, BMW X-drive has Nokia Akapellita, Audi has Pirelli Zotto Zero. Over all we ranked Quattro, 4Matic. X-drive in that order. We're not pro drivers but all received defensive driving course in class room and on track. Think AWD performance is based on design, whether vehicle is RWD baised or FWD biased, weight balance, front and back, height of center of gravity... IMO Subaru system is best. Specially new ones with X-mode. Our daughter is a loyal Subaru driver since high school days. Looks like she is eyeing on a new Crosstrek
replacing her old Forester XT.

Originally Posted by Htony

Well, mega rich people can do anything they want, LOL! Unfortunately we don't even belong to any rich class. Drove company vehicles(to a degree I had choices from only Big 3) replaced every 3 years When I retired I took the car I was driving for whole sale book value. Then I had to create a secret account to put aside some money every month. From that account now we could afford some nice vehicles. But pretty we'll have to be ready for new breed of cars using alternative energy. May be I'll be gone B4 that time comes. After 2 years from now, I have to take physical exam. annually to keep my driver's license. Wife is younger than I so she may driver little longer.

Originally Posted by UDel

That is not true. Simply having 4wd does not suddenly turn a vehicle into something you can drive in any weather condition and not worry. There are many weather conditions like deep snow and ice where you don't want to drive just about any personal vehicle, even if it has awd or 4wd. Have a look at news footage of all the vehicles flipped over, in a ditch, smashed into something during a bad snowstorm and you will see the majority of them are 4wd vehicles whose owners likely thought those vehicles could handle anything and they decided to drive instead of staying off the road. Having a 4wd vehicle with a higher ground clearance with snow tires/chains and knowing how to drive in the snow certainly helps and is your best bet for driving in the snow but knowing when not to drive and stay off the road in bad weather no matter what vehicle you have will keep you the safest. Remember that not too long ago the vast majority of vehicles on the road were not awd, most were RWD with not very good tires not too long ago either and people managed to get around even in the snow. Good all seasons or snow tires and using caution will be more then enough for most drivers in the few snows most of the US gets each year.

AWD/4wd is not necessary unless you live in rural areas that get lots of snow and you absolutely need to drive in it, someone living in NYC or most of the US that just needs a grocery getter or train car does not need awd and it is generally a waste of money and gas to get it for the few times it snows. Those types are often the ones who don't know how to drive in the snow or know when to stay home and they end up getting in a accident in their 4wd vehicle while driving in the snow, awd mostly just helps you get unstuck from a stop, it does not help you brake or will stop you from a slide.

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill

Originally Posted by SW15LS

This is the way I look at AWD in the context of a non-utility vehicle also. With my AWD LS460 if I go into the office and there is no snow, and I come out and there is 4-5 inches of snow, I get in my car and I drive home. I don't have to worry about leaving early or trying to avoid the weather. If I need to or want to get in my car and drive down to southern WV to my hometown which I do a couple times a year, in the winter the highways in the mountains are unpredictable, with the AWD LS I don't have to worry. With my RWD LS400 and LS430 I would avoid travel there in the winter in that car. Luckily at that time we had a 4WD SUV, don't have that luxury right now.

With my kids, if we're here and we're in a snowstorm and somebody gets hurt, or sick, or needs to go to the Doctor, I know I can load everybody in the LS and get to where I need to go as long as there isn't more than 5-6 inches of snow on the roads.

There's a luxury to that flexibility and freedom, and thats why I think you see AWD becoming so prevalent in luxury sedans and vehicles today. I think that is also a reason why crossovers have become as popular as they are.

Thats one luxury I really will miss when my new RWD LS460L gets here. Looking back my AWD LS460 and AWD GS350 combined may have been driven in the snow 3 times in 5 years, but having that freedom is part of the overall package.

So no, its not "necessary", but its a really great feature to have and makes travel in the winter, and the rain, much more sure footed and gives you as a vehicle owner a lot more freedom and confidence. Absent my AWD LS, the FWD Pacifica will become the family snow car and we'll be able to get where we need to go if we have to go out, but that confidence won't be there.

Originally Posted by SW15LS

This is the way I look at AWD in the context of a non-utility vehicle also. With my AWD LS460 if I go into the office and there is no snow, and I come out and there is 4-5 inches of snow, I get in my car and I drive home. I don't have to worry about leaving early or trying to avoid the weather. If I need to or want to get in my car and drive down to southern WV to my hometown which I do a couple times a year, in the winter the highways in the mountains are unpredictable, with the AWD LS I don't have to worry. With my RWD LS400 and LS430 I would avoid travel there in the winter in that car. Luckily at that time we had a 4WD SUV, don't have that luxury right now.

With my kids, if we're here and we're in a snowstorm and somebody gets hurt, or sick, or needs to go to the Doctor, I know I can load everybody in the LS and get to where I need to go as long as there isn't more than 5-6 inches of snow on the roads.

There's a luxury to that flexibility and freedom, and thats why I think you see AWD becoming so prevalent in luxury sedans and vehicles today. I think that is also a reason why crossovers have become as popular as they are.

Thats one luxury I really will miss when my new RWD LS460L gets here. Looking back my AWD LS460 and AWD GS350 combined may have been driven in the snow 3 times in 5 years, but having that freedom is part of the overall package.

So no, its not "necessary", but its a really great feature to have and makes travel in the winter, and the rain, much more sure footed and gives you as a vehicle owner a lot more freedom and confidence. Absent my AWD LS, the FWD Pacifica will become the family snow car and we'll be able to get where we need to go if we have to go out, but that confidence won't be there.

Originally Posted by MattyG

He's over-correcting to mitigate the outside slide. It's a classic case of snap over-steer being over-corrected to prevent a collision to the outside which then points the vehicle to the insde, which happens to be a wall. And you say you practice this on public property? How old are you guys?

Originally Posted by SW15LS

This is the way I look at AWD in the context of a non-utility vehicle also. With my AWD LS460 if I go into the office and there is no snow, and I come out and there is 4-5 inches of snow, I get in my car and I drive home. I don't have to worry about leaving early or trying to avoid the weather. If I need to or want to get in my car and drive down to southern WV to my hometown which I do a couple times a year, in the winter the highways in the mountains are unpredictable, with the AWD LS I don't have to worry. With my RWD LS400 and LS430 I would avoid travel there in the winter in that car. Luckily at that time we had a 4WD SUV, don't have that luxury right now.

With my kids, if we're here and we're in a snowstorm and somebody gets hurt, or sick, or needs to go to the Doctor, I know I can load everybody in the LS and get to where I need to go as long as there isn't more than 5-6 inches of snow on the roads.

There's a luxury to that flexibility and freedom, and thats why I think you see AWD becoming so prevalent in luxury sedans and vehicles today. I think that is also a reason why crossovers have become as popular as they are.

Thats one luxury I really will miss when my new RWD LS460L gets here. Looking back my AWD LS460 and AWD GS350 combined may have been driven in the snow 3 times in 5 years, but having that freedom is part of the overall package.

So no, its not "necessary", but its a really great feature to have and makes travel in the winter, and the rain, much more sure footed and gives you as a vehicle owner a lot more freedom and confidence. Absent my AWD LS, the FWD Pacifica will become the family snow car and we'll be able to get where we need to go if we have to go out, but that confidence won't be there.

Originally Posted by Johnhav430

There's a certain false sense of confidence that I think has been discussed before here. Quebec, 4 snows are required. Ontario, 4 snows are not required but most cars I've observed over the past two years have 4 snows. Here, there seems to be this mentality that AWD and A/S tires = no need to worry about anything. Just look at a week and a half ago in Philly, 2" of snow, and 20 car pileup on 76, another on the turnpike. How many of those vehicles are likely AWD? The majority. Then again, the youtubes which demonstrate many vehicles cannot effectively detect slippage, and then transfer the torque. A muddy water drenched soccer field would be a good test for anyone's vehicle, again, Jeep and Range Rover don't bother, you know you'll be ok. It's the Toyota/Honda/Ford/VW and new Audis that may be in for a surprise...(not 4Runner or Land Cruiser/Sequoia should be fine)

Originally Posted by AWD4Mo

Well said, its all about the confidence. With an AWD I am not scared of driving in heavy snow. When you said you won't have the confidence with the Pacifica, if you put on snow tires, I think you will find it will do well. Besides its a heavy vehicle, so there's that.

Originally Posted by Stroock639

yes i agree it's definitely more beneficial to have AWD if you can and have an actual decent commute. but as you point out, having AWD / 4WD is a luxury! you actually commute to work and do well for yourself so i'd probably go for an AWD car too if i were in a similar position.

i'm talking about the people that will only use this car to drive a very short amount everyday through an essentially 100% urban / suburban environment that feel having AWD is so important they will get a much more costly SUV / CUV. i'm just somewhat frustrated by the amount of people i've seen that ended up going with a rogue over a rav since it's quite a bit cheaper (for good reason) when they could've spent even less and just gotten a corolla or camry.

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill

Well said. I will also add that you also benefit of AWD when driving in any conditions , not just snow. You rain and even dry pavement which adds in handling. The really nice thing about Lexus AWD in their cars, is that is almost a mirror of the BOF full time system.