All wheel drive, four-wheel drive, is it really necessary?
01-06-18, 08:41 AM
#46
Lexus Fanatic
RAV4 is not 4WD. It’s all wheel drive
That all said, I have been fortunate to have a 4WD pretty much my whole life. I like the idea that you can just drive in any weather condition and not worry about it. It is not needed but it helps. If I got snow tires on either of our SUVs, it would be even better.
But snow tires on a car are very good and are probably better than all season with AWD.
That all said, I have been fortunate to have a 4WD pretty much my whole life. I like the idea that you can just drive in any weather condition and not worry about it. It is not needed but it helps. If I got snow tires on either of our SUVs, it would be even better.
But snow tires on a car are very good and are probably better than all season with AWD.
AWD/4wd is not necessary unless you live in rural areas that get lots of snow and you absolutely need to drive in it, someone living in NYC or most of the US that just needs a grocery getter or train car does not need awd and it is generally a waste of money and gas to get it for the few times it snows. Those types are often the ones who don't know how to drive in the snow or know when to stay home and they end up getting in a accident in their 4wd vehicle while driving in the snow, awd mostly just helps you get unstuck from a stop, it does not help you brake or will stop you from a slide.
01-06-18, 09:12 AM
#47
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
I like the idea that you can just drive in any weather condition and not worry about it.
01-06-18, 09:29 AM
#48
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Having AWD means you can drive in almost any weather, with common sense, and not worry as much. Al else equal, It will vastly lessen the chances that you will get stuck in snow and not be able to start up. But, as UDel points out, It is NOT a substitute for reasonable care in steering, cornering, or stopping.....which, of course, is more dependent on the tires themselves than the drive-system. I agree that I've also seen many AWD/4WD SUVs and other vehicles that became casualties of overconfidence during snowstorms.
exactly, lack of driver preparedness and knowledge about driving in bad conditions is still the major issue here, and like others have said don't even bother complaining unless you've actually put on snow tires
01-06-18, 10:41 AM
#49
Lexus Champion
01-06-18, 10:44 AM
#50
Pit Crew
In answering the original question in the thread, I would have to say "no, its not necessary to have AWD or 4WD".....BUT......I'd rather have it in snow and ice conditions.
It is possible to get by with FWD and RWD along with snow tires, but its not my choice.
IMO, the difference between each of these types of drives can be understood only at the threshold of losing traction on all four wheels - RWD will get there soonest; FWD will get there a bit later; AWD will be the last to get there. Once traction is lost for all four wheels, it really
doesn't matter what type of drive you have until the vehicle slows down enough and gets back to the threshold of becoming tractable again. At this point, AWD allows you to "drive out of it" easier than FWD or RWD.
Also, if you are stuck in snow, an AWD has a better chance of getting out of it.
My daily driver has always been an AWD for as long as I can remember - Subaru's, and now a Lexus IS250. It has allowed me to keep driving safely in every situation I have encountered.
Having said all of this, there are a lot of bozo's out there who think AWD/4WD make them invincible - these are the dangerous drivers!
It is possible to get by with FWD and RWD along with snow tires, but its not my choice.
IMO, the difference between each of these types of drives can be understood only at the threshold of losing traction on all four wheels - RWD will get there soonest; FWD will get there a bit later; AWD will be the last to get there. Once traction is lost for all four wheels, it really
doesn't matter what type of drive you have until the vehicle slows down enough and gets back to the threshold of becoming tractable again. At this point, AWD allows you to "drive out of it" easier than FWD or RWD.
Also, if you are stuck in snow, an AWD has a better chance of getting out of it.
My daily driver has always been an AWD for as long as I can remember - Subaru's, and now a Lexus IS250. It has allowed me to keep driving safely in every situation I have encountered.
Having said all of this, there are a lot of bozo's out there who think AWD/4WD make them invincible - these are the dangerous drivers!
01-06-18, 12:37 PM
#51
Lexus Fanatic
Up to a certain level of torque RWD is superior. What was eye opening to me were the youtubes not done by the mfgs., showing so many so-called awd systems as being useless, where a vehicle was a) unable to get power to wheels that were not slipping b) unable to do anything when only 1 wheel had traction
Why pay for something that doesn't work? Or just buy a Jeep or Range Rover. Even the 4 rings seems to have entered the fake FWD based AWD arena with the quest for mpgs.
Next time you're in an common, and innocent scenario, such as parked on grass at your kids' soccer games, and it's poured rain for 3 hours and now all mud, look at how many of these "AWD" soccer-mobiles are totally stuck and helpless. It's eye awakening.
Why pay for something that doesn't work? Or just buy a Jeep or Range Rover. Even the 4 rings seems to have entered the fake FWD based AWD arena with the quest for mpgs.
Next time you're in an common, and innocent scenario, such as parked on grass at your kids' soccer games, and it's poured rain for 3 hours and now all mud, look at how many of these "AWD" soccer-mobiles are totally stuck and helpless. It's eye awakening.
01-06-18, 12:51 PM
#52
Lexus Fanatic
Once you get to 25mph your 4WD unlocks. A real 4WD vehicle would be like a Tundra, once you put it in 4WD, it locks and stays in 4WD until you unlock it. A Lexus GX goes one step further and is never ever not in 4WD. These crossover have faux 4WD. I think it’s called On Demand 4WD or On Demand AWD.If you go to Toyota.com. They called the RAV4 an innovative AWD system.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 01-06-18 at 12:58 PM.
01-06-18, 01:10 PM
#53
Pit Crew
And the FWD's and the RWD's aren't helpless in that same scenario? That is mighty hard to believe. I can safely say that 9 times out of 10 the AWD will make it out of your scenario, and the RWD and FWD won't!
01-06-18, 02:19 PM
#54
Lexus Champion
I see far more AWD SUVs in the ditch (often upside down or sideways) versus sedans. False sense of security makes them effectively more dangerous. And they roll too easily watch a few crash vids on Youtube SUVs are constantly tipping over.
SUVs are a blight AWD or not.
For road use this seems perfectly fine.
SUVs are a blight AWD or not.
For road use this seems perfectly fine.
01-06-18, 02:33 PM
#55
Lexus Test Driver
I have driven FWD Maxima, TL, Camry in the midwest winter for many years. FWD vehicles are fine in the snow. I put snow tires for my RWD such as GS and IS in the winter.
01-06-18, 02:54 PM
#56
Lexus Test Driver
Originally Posted by gs400998
I have driven FWD Maxima, TL, Camry in the midwest winter for many years. FWD vehicles are fine in the snow. I put snow tires for my RWD such as GS and IS in the winter.
01-06-18, 04:18 PM
#57
Lexus Test Driver
A properly tired RWD is better than a FWD in all-seasons in the snow. People just prefer AWD because they can get away with having a year round tire with that set up. Id rather have a RWD with a dedicated set of snow tires vs having a FWD car but it seems my preferences are in the minority.
01-06-18, 04:44 PM
#58
Lexus Champion
If you look at the short video clip that the OP started the thread with, you can see, that Ford Explorer is nearly out of control because of the excessive throttle application to make the rear wheels break loose. The rear wheels break and then the driver has to nearly over-correct with aggressive counter steer to make sure he doesn't run to the outside of the turn and then nearly runs into the building's wall. This is what some of the worst SUV drivers will do because that's the so-called, "I'm invincible" driving attitude.
01-06-18, 05:02 PM
#59
Lexus Champion
To answer your question...NOPE.
Driving in the snow is best avoided, but of course thats a bit impossible sometimes. The most common issue with snow driving is what lies behind the steering wheel aka driver as I have seen beast of machines like G wagons and Range Rovers stuck in snow banks while lowly fwd civics move along merrily. If the driver understands the limits of what their vehicle can do, and what is logical then you have got maybe 50% of winter driving down. The rest is luck and how the environment around you aka drivers around are doing.
From their on its a mechanical game. Do you have snow tires, that too a full set with good compound left?
AWD, 4WD is all basically left to chance.
4WD systems are simple, power always on in some kind of split and manual overides/switches (4lo high 2wd). These things were modernized with sensors to limit wheel spin etc, but basically zero reaction times.
AWD systems which operate with a traction computer and sensor data. System auto detects traction levels from sensors, then responds with a command. Usually FWD, and thats where the problem a lot of users (more so 4WD purists) have with these systems. Lets say your front left tire has lost traction, the sensor has to detect that event, computer process, and then issue a command to apply brakes/cut or reroute power. Takes a while when miliseconds can make a difference. Some systems have tremendously cut down processing times by integrating units to cut down on travel lengths (i3s traction system) and some systems just sit there waiting and playing the lets see which tires provides forward movement (Recent example was the 16 highlander test with TFLCar). Then there are systems which do more then just axle to axle, they down individual wheel to wheel (SH-AWD and newer BMW and Audi systems). With systems going from multiple computers to integrated drive modules AWD is going to be the standard and probably start eating away at mainstream 4WD outliers.
Driving in the snow is best avoided, but of course thats a bit impossible sometimes. The most common issue with snow driving is what lies behind the steering wheel aka driver as I have seen beast of machines like G wagons and Range Rovers stuck in snow banks while lowly fwd civics move along merrily. If the driver understands the limits of what their vehicle can do, and what is logical then you have got maybe 50% of winter driving down. The rest is luck and how the environment around you aka drivers around are doing.
From their on its a mechanical game. Do you have snow tires, that too a full set with good compound left?
AWD, 4WD is all basically left to chance.
4WD systems are simple, power always on in some kind of split and manual overides/switches (4lo high 2wd). These things were modernized with sensors to limit wheel spin etc, but basically zero reaction times.
AWD systems which operate with a traction computer and sensor data. System auto detects traction levels from sensors, then responds with a command. Usually FWD, and thats where the problem a lot of users (more so 4WD purists) have with these systems. Lets say your front left tire has lost traction, the sensor has to detect that event, computer process, and then issue a command to apply brakes/cut or reroute power. Takes a while when miliseconds can make a difference. Some systems have tremendously cut down processing times by integrating units to cut down on travel lengths (i3s traction system) and some systems just sit there waiting and playing the lets see which tires provides forward movement (Recent example was the 16 highlander test with TFLCar). Then there are systems which do more then just axle to axle, they down individual wheel to wheel (SH-AWD and newer BMW and Audi systems). With systems going from multiple computers to integrated drive modules AWD is going to be the standard and probably start eating away at mainstream 4WD outliers.
part time 4WD. In my family, wife drives Mercedes GLA with 4Matic, son has few BMW vehicles M3, 328iX, M235; open differential with RWD. My Audi SQ5 with Quattro. We tested them ourselves on a wide open deep snow covered field all with good brand name winter tires. Merecedes had Michelin Xice 3, BMW X-drive has Nokia Akapellita, Audi has Pirelli Zotto Zero. Over all we ranked Quattro, 4Matic. X-drive in that order. We're not pro drivers but all received defensive driving course in class room and on track. Think AWD performance is based on design, whether vehicle is RWD baised or FWD biased, weight balance, front and back, height of center of gravity... IMO Subaru system is best. Specially new ones with X-mode. Our daughter is a loyal Subaru driver since high school days. Looks like she is eyeing on a new Crosstrek
replacing her old Forester XT.
Last edited by Htony; 01-06-18 at 05:08 PM.
01-06-18, 05:42 PM
#60
Lexus Champion
^^^ Interesting comparisons. Sometimes people who have a lot of money will pay for things that provide less real world value as opposed to perceived value. And 4WD vehicles/trucks are no exception. I liken it to people who go buy Arctic expedition parkas because, you know, the explorers use them on Mount Everest, so I must need them too, usually in that bright red/orange color with some sort of logo patch on the left shoulder.