Johnny Mayday

On the HP, Brett Foote wrote about how Lexus believes its sedans need to evolve or die, and that Toyota Motor Corp.’s global branding chief Tokuo Fukuichi thinks the configuration's days are numbered. I happen to think he's right, especially after cars go autonomous, and don't focus on driving pleasure. What do you think?

mmarshall

While I respect your opinion, Johnny, IMO, the idea that sedans are doomed is nonsense. Camry, Fusion, and Accord sedans still sell like hotcakes, and I just ordered a new Buick Lacrosse.....after almost buying four or five other similiar-class sedans.......ES350, MKZ, G80, and Cadenza. The Toyota Corolla (available in both sedans and other body-styles) is arguably the top-selling car in history. Buick is introducing the new 2018 Regal in only hatchback and wagon form; no sedan, and dropping the new 2018 Verano sedan from the American market .......I think they will find, after a couple of years, that both omissions were marketing errors. And, of course, the Lexus ES350 has been one of that division's bread-and-butter vehicles for decades.

ragingf80

"Fukuichi believes that a “sedan experience” must include sports car-like handling and sharper steering response"

Thank you. That's actually what we want. Car manufacturers keep making them softer, including my last 3 BMWs.

Johnhav430

I wouldn't think so, people have to be practical, sedans are easier to get people in and out of. As are suvs. imho coupes are for looks? Example though, with the current M3/M4, I actually prefer the M3, which has 4 doors. But in the prior generation, I prefer the E92, which is 2 doors. This is all about looks, as the cars perform very similarly...

mmarshall

BMW is one of the very few exceptions. Most automakers are continually making their sedans more and more sport-oriented, especially in higher-trim versions.

situman

I dont think so. It comes down to consumer tastes and preferences and society and the economy. When gas prices were high, people bought up penalty boxes like a prius or yaris or Fiestas or whatever fuel sipping small penalty boxes and SUVs were shunned. Wait until the next recession hits when people dont want to spend money on higher operating costs of owning a SUV and paying for more at the pump for real life gas mileages. We are living in excess right now and big and excessive is what people want these days.

16USBGSF

iTrader: (1)

The market trends, are just that trends. Is the sedan of today doomed? Possibly, but I think in the future a version of sedan will be around. Not everyone wants to drive an SUV/Crossover/Minivan to get 4 doors. Maybe the market sales are not as strong as the used to be. Many factors involved in car trends. Economy is a big part. The generation of buyers these days 21 to 35 want either sporty or utility and don't really view, esp lower trim levels, sedans as either. I am sure as this generation ages and the next younger generation comes into the big buying segment the trends will shift somewhere else. Feels like it happens every decade with a few hold overs.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

doesn't take a genius to see that traditional sedan volume will continue to be eroded by cuv/suvs, but that doesn't mean they're 'doomed' just as the predicted death of 12 cylinder cars has been exaggerated for decades.
like the majority of american consumers who buy trucks, cuv/suvs and minivans, i have zero interest in sedans because they're 'stuck in the middle' - not that versatile in terms of space, and rarely that sporty due to size/weight. yes, physics can be defied with cars like panameras, but try getting grandma in the back of one of those. but for the next decade sedans will be fine, but things are getting very blurred... i blame subaru for starting it. is a tall wagon or hatchback looking vehicle a cuv?

2008GS

Sedan sales are in-fact decreasing; SUV/crossovers are now selling two to one for many manufacturers. Sedans are not doomed as a model choice, but their sales will continue to slide for the foreseeable future. Lexus needs to continue to push the envelope on it's offerings. The NX has been a bright spot; forecast was 2200/mo, but actual sales are 4500/mo and growing. Lexus needs to expand their crossover segment to continue to gain market share.

Johnhav430

imho there will always be an element of what a person likes, and actually wants, and this cannot be dictated by a mfg. nor any survey results or studies. Two cars that I like that I have seen this week/been behind.....a S550 (maybe a dime a dozen sure), and a S600 Maybach. Both happen to be sedans, and imho both very plain jane, but beautiful at the same time. Turn either into a coupe or SUV, nein danke!

mmarshall

The vehicle that truly started the crossover/car-based/utility craze was some fifteen years ahead of its time, and, back then, truly a niche-vehicle....the 1981 AMC Eagle. Just like the Subaru Outback was to become 15 years later, the Eagle was a more-or-less standard AMC Concord/Hornet 5-door wagon on a taller suspension, larger wheels, and what was arguably the world's first car-based AWD, using a viscous-coupled center differential, that could be used on any surface, and did not need a separate transfer-case or locking front hubs. Just like Sir Alec Issigonis's original 1959 Mini Cooper would transform (decades later) the world of FWD vehicles with transverse-engines, the AMC Eagle would transform what would become the world of small CUVs/SUVs/utile-wagons and their car-based AWD.

I simply don't buy the idea that the sedan is doomed....certainly not in the foreseeable future. In the American market, despite the huge popularity of SUVs, and the fact that sales of some sedans are down, the mid-sized family sedan market (Camry, Accord, Fusion, Sonata, Optima, Malibu, Altima, etc...) is just too large and widely-entrenched.

Toys4RJill

Sedeans are absolutely not dead. They are just in decline right now. There are some factors as to why. But first, it needs to be said that there really is three classes of cars right now and I wish the media would address it. Cross over SUVs are not true SUVs, they are essentially cars that are jacked up a little and offer AWD.

Now, it must be said that manufacturers have figured out how to get folks into a higher price point for less car in reality.

Interior room in the RX is not much different than the ES. In fact the RX is very likely a shorter car. Same thing for NX or Rav4. People buying these models are making a big compromise to get their AWD. They have to settle for 4 bangers, a slighter small interior for the cost. And a precieved larger rear hatch. An RX is essentially a ES. Kind of like how a Sequoia is really a Tundra at heart.

If Toyota offered AWD on Corollas, Camrys, Avalon's and ES350, it would take a sizable chunk out of their cross over sales.

The RAV4 is nothing more than a Corolla/matrix that is slightly higher and offer's AWD and a barely larger 4 banger. The interior is not much large than our Matrix and the rear cargo is not much more than our Matrix. But people are willing to fork out 30k large for the RAV4.

Johnny Mayday

Congrats on the Lacrosse, I liked that car a lot. It'll be interesting to see if Buick regrets not bringing in the sedan, but something tells me they won't. And I'm not saying the sedan is going away tomorrow. But I think the market will continue to shrink, if only because 90% of people don't care about driving dynamics, so a crossover doesn't have any disadvantages to them.

ragingf80

I think a small minority of them actually care about or even utilize AWD. It's about trunk size and image.

Sulu

It is true that crossovers are money-makers for the automakers.

The ES is about 1-inch longer than the RX and has much more rear legroom than the RX; but the ES 350 is about 800-lb lighter than the RX. The greater weight of the RX likely comes from the greater bulk (10-inches taller, 3-inches wider) and the AWD drivetrain.

It is not as simple as adding AWD to Toyota's cars to make them crossovers. I would very much like to see (and drive) a Camry or ES AWD wagon model than a RAV4, Highlander or RX, but the difference between Toyota's cars and the crossovers is NOT as simple as the crossovers being station wagon models of the cars. I don't think merely adding AWD to the Corolla, Camry or ES will cut into sales of the RAV4, Highlander or RX.

The RAV4 may share a platform with the Corolla but the RAV4 is much more than just a higher-riding Corolla or Matrix. The RAV4 is 3-inches wider and 10-inches taller (and not all of that extra height can be attributed to a higher suspension and ground clearance), and actually shorter than the Corolla; but the extra height plus the open cargo area really increases cargo space. The RAV4's engine is also quite a bit larger (2.5-litre vs 1.8-litre) but of course it needs that extra displacement because it is about 600-lbs heavier than the Corolla