View Poll Results: What should the next LS go after?
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Next Lexus LS (2018 model)
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 35,276
Likes: 305
From: ON/NY
As Tango said, Toyota knows what they are doing.
However. It is a fact of life that turbo engines create a lot of heat and are very hard on the engine oil. Extending your oil change interval on a NA V8 is no biggie. Making that a habit on a TT engine is way more of a problem. Modern engines are very dependent on good oil change practices due to heavy dependency on oil actuated variable valvetrains and the like.
Adding a pair of oil whipping, scorching turbines and things get worse much quicker. While this doesn't affect most buyers of these cars, it surely affects me, the guy that buys your $60k car for $15k a decade and a half later. Even the owner that carries the car several years out of warrany will get the sticker shock of his life when we has to replace a pair of turbos at the dealer.
"But my old LS went 20 years without any serious repairs!"
Lexus is good at making a reliable car but they can't defy the laws of physics. These cars will inherently be less reliable than history has shown.
The worry of actual engine damage like rings, compression loss and long block type worries, I'd say are not of concern. I'd be way more concerned with the turbos themselves, oil coking, VVT actuators, sludge and just plain heat just cooking all the plastic under the hood.
However. It is a fact of life that turbo engines create a lot of heat and are very hard on the engine oil. Extending your oil change interval on a NA V8 is no biggie. Making that a habit on a TT engine is way more of a problem. Modern engines are very dependent on good oil change practices due to heavy dependency on oil actuated variable valvetrains and the like.
Adding a pair of oil whipping, scorching turbines and things get worse much quicker. While this doesn't affect most buyers of these cars, it surely affects me, the guy that buys your $60k car for $15k a decade and a half later. Even the owner that carries the car several years out of warrany will get the sticker shock of his life when we has to replace a pair of turbos at the dealer.
"But my old LS went 20 years without any serious repairs!"
Lexus is good at making a reliable car but they can't defy the laws of physics. These cars will inherently be less reliable than history has shown.
The worry of actual engine damage like rings, compression loss and long block type worries, I'd say are not of concern. I'd be way more concerned with the turbos themselves, oil coking, VVT actuators, sludge and just plain heat just cooking all the plastic under the hood.
Toyota has been making Turbos for certain products well be for the Lexus brand was even conceived.
This new new LS will be more reliable than past LS models.
It has been some time, eh? I've had mine over 10 years boosted... crazy...
While yes, turbo cars can of course be reliable, you're comparing an enthusiast owned car to potentially a soccer mom IS200t that might change her oil 5k miles late for 6 years... Would you buy that car? This is the scenario I worry about. Wouldn't it be way easier to buy an IS350 knowing it's a much simpler car mechanically?
The point is yea it's likely good provided strict practices were followed, but the NA version will ALWAYS be more reliable. It's just a matter of hey, if you don't have any turbos, you never gotta change em!
It's not a huge deal, but the margin for error closes dramatically as the years pile on. As opposed to before, you wouldn't even blink at an LS with 180k on it. A TT one with 90k? Yikes... Show me pristine service records!
While yes, turbo cars can of course be reliable, you're comparing an enthusiast owned car to potentially a soccer mom IS200t that might change her oil 5k miles late for 6 years... Would you buy that car? This is the scenario I worry about. Wouldn't it be way easier to buy an IS350 knowing it's a much simpler car mechanically?
The point is yea it's likely good provided strict practices were followed, but the NA version will ALWAYS be more reliable. It's just a matter of hey, if you don't have any turbos, you never gotta change em!
It's not a huge deal, but the margin for error closes dramatically as the years pile on. As opposed to before, you wouldn't even blink at an LS with 180k on it. A TT one with 90k? Yikes... Show me pristine service records!
Exactly, Toyota's known record of reliability is a good thing for Lexus. People can stereotype all they want it bothers weak people others just buy what they want and enjoy.
Pole Position
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,365
Likes: 29
From: Florida
Jill I respect your opinion on here, always have, but saying this engine will be more reliable as the V8 it's replacing, is a stretch. Now, we may be thinking in different time scales. I'm talking 10 years plus. You may be thinking I'm saying in 4 years the engine will explode. No, not at all.
Everything being identical, a naturally aspirated powertrain will give less problems than a turbocharged one. The plumbing alone required for a turbo car complicates things a lot and introduces many potential problem areas as the car ages.
It's simple. The less parts you have, they less chance they have to fail.
To what degree this will happen, only time will tell. Hopefully it's a negligible difference.
While I agree with all you stated, Lexus does care about that 15-year mark. But only because it means they are making a quality product. How many 15 year old Benzes and BMW's do you see everyday? Not much, huh? This is what separates the good from the best in reliability.
Of course they don't care about me buying old cars. The point was that *I* do, and in the future, it won't be as easy as it is now.
And I think there is monetary value their older cars on the road. Parts and Service is very lucrative, and it shows the public how well the cars are built when they see all the 20-year old Toyotas still putting about. They will stick with the brand and buy another when the time comes.
Of course they don't care about me buying old cars. The point was that *I* do, and in the future, it won't be as easy as it is now.
And I think there is monetary value their older cars on the road. Parts and Service is very lucrative, and it shows the public how well the cars are built when they see all the 20-year old Toyotas still putting about. They will stick with the brand and buy another when the time comes.
What's with the unrealistic standard applied to this brand? If Lexus had put a NA V8 in this car, everyone would be complaining about how it can't match the output of its rivals (look at the GS-F complaints). If they put the RC-F V8 in it, they'd complain about it being too high-strung for a sedate sedan. If they put a TTV8 in it, we'd hear even more complaints about the high(er) price. With a TTV6, we hear worries about 15 yr reliability. This is silly.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 67,908
Likes: 3,839
From: Maryland
I completely disagree with that. Just look at the enthusiastic members we have here with Lexus vehicles that old. I still see Lexus vehicles older than that on a regular basis out on the road, and we live in a very affluent place.
They aren't specifically comparing reliability figures, but the reliability of those vehicles goes into the overall reliability of Lexus as a brand, and the public's perception of Lexus as a brand. When people hear stories about "my aunts Lexus had 250,000 miles and no problem" that impacts their perception.
I actually agree with you, and be sure to know that I'm not complaining about reliability, I said I'm not worried about it. All I responded to was the idea that 10-15 year reliability isn't important, it is important.
No one is looking at MY2002 vehicles and judging the worth of new cars by it, Lexus or otherwise. They are judging the reliability of that 15 year old car, and that's it. Humans are not so "long" in their decision making, as demonstrated experimentally by prospect theory economists.
What's with the unrealistic standard applied to this brand? If Lexus had put a NA V8 in this car, everyone would be complaining about how it can't match the output of its rivals (look at the GS-F complaints). If they put the RC-F V8 in it, they'd complain about it being too high-strung for a sedate sedan. If they put a TTV8 in it, we'd hear even more complaints about the high(er) price. With a TTV6, we hear worries about 15 yr reliability. This is silly.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,302
Likes: 17
From: CA
Another thing aside from the long-term reliability of this engine, which frankly no one knows how it will last.
How in world does Toyota shave off 1 second in 0-60 times with 29 measly more HP then the outgoing model? Toyota, for all its talk, isn't exactly known for making light luxury vehicles.
415 vs 386 isn't exactly anything to crow about. Sounds like a big step up due to the "4," but do the math. I find their 0-60 numbers borderline outlandish and will believe it when I see a third party do it. I bet the new LS weighs about the same, exceeding 4000 lbs easily.
How in world does Toyota shave off 1 second in 0-60 times with 29 measly more HP then the outgoing model? Toyota, for all its talk, isn't exactly known for making light luxury vehicles.
415 vs 386 isn't exactly anything to crow about. Sounds like a big step up due to the "4," but do the math. I find their 0-60 numbers borderline outlandish and will believe it when I see a third party do it. I bet the new LS weighs about the same, exceeding 4000 lbs easily.
Lead Lap
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 4,513
Likes: 345
From: In your head
Lets be honest here, as long as the TT V6 proves to be reliable for 4 years 60k miles thats better then anything Germany can come up with, all is well and good in Lexus land. Any mile over that would be a testament to how incredible Toyota engineering is.
Overall the design is interesting inside. So anyone figure out if their is a secondary tft panel on the right of the 12.3 screen cause the pictures seem to show some kind of wavy pattern on the passenger side which looks computer graphically generated.
Give the vehicle some launch time, with a good price and it will sell just like the last generation. Slow but steady. If it decides to sticker the thing on par with BMW or Mercedes, expect tons of inventory piling up or an RCF GSF debacle where Lexus outprices and then drops down into trunk money. We will all forget how reliable the engine is or how camry esque it is. This type of discussion happens everytime a new model launches and then suddenly disappears once its out
Overall the design is interesting inside. So anyone figure out if their is a secondary tft panel on the right of the 12.3 screen cause the pictures seem to show some kind of wavy pattern on the passenger side which looks computer graphically generated.
Give the vehicle some launch time, with a good price and it will sell just like the last generation. Slow but steady. If it decides to sticker the thing on par with BMW or Mercedes, expect tons of inventory piling up or an RCF GSF debacle where Lexus outprices and then drops down into trunk money. We will all forget how reliable the engine is or how camry esque it is. This type of discussion happens everytime a new model launches and then suddenly disappears once its out
Another thing aside from the long-term reliability of this engine, which frankly no one knows how it will last.
How in world does Toyota shave off 1 second in 0-60 times with 29 measly more HP then the outgoing model? Toyota, for all its talk, isn't exactly known for making light luxury vehicles.
415 vs 386 isn't exactly anything to crow about. Sounds like a big step up due to the "4," but do the math. I find their 0-60 numbers borderline outlandish and will believe it when I see a third party do it. I bet the new LS weighs about the same, exceeding 4000 lbs easily.
How in world does Toyota shave off 1 second in 0-60 times with 29 measly more HP then the outgoing model? Toyota, for all its talk, isn't exactly known for making light luxury vehicles.
415 vs 386 isn't exactly anything to crow about. Sounds like a big step up due to the "4," but do the math. I find their 0-60 numbers borderline outlandish and will believe it when I see a third party do it. I bet the new LS weighs about the same, exceeding 4000 lbs easily.
Pole Position
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,365
Likes: 29
From: Florida
You don't see many 15 year old Lexus either. 10 years of service is already much better than you'd get with a Benz or BMW, yet this fact doesn't hurt the #1 and #2 brands measured by volume. No one is looking at MY2002 vehicles and judging the worth of new cars by it, Lexus or otherwise. They are judging the reliability of that 15 year old car, and that's it. Humans are not so "long" in their decision making, as demonstrated experimentally by prospect theory economists.
What's with the unrealistic standard applied to this brand? If Lexus had put a NA V8 in this car, everyone would be complaining about how it can't match the output of its rivals (look at the GS-F complaints). If they put the RC-F V8 in it, they'd complain about it being too high-strung for a sedate sedan. If they put a TTV8 in it, we'd hear even more complaints about the high(er) price. With a TTV6, we hear worries about 15 yr reliability. This is silly.
What's with the unrealistic standard applied to this brand? If Lexus had put a NA V8 in this car, everyone would be complaining about how it can't match the output of its rivals (look at the GS-F complaints). If they put the RC-F V8 in it, they'd complain about it being too high-strung for a sedate sedan. If they put a TTV8 in it, we'd hear even more complaints about the high(er) price. With a TTV6, we hear worries about 15 yr reliability. This is silly.
I brought up long-term reliability because it's a real concern for some people like myself. I think it's relevant in discussing the engine change. Likely not a huge deal as previously stated, but a fact nonetheless.
Hypothetical: What if the 15 year reliability in fact does suffer? That surely will affect the opinions of the people watching that. It has the potential to tarnish the reliable rep Lexus enjoys now.
And all considered, there's not much complain about so I think we're in a good place. Of the three engine choices you mentioned, they went with the best choice I think.
Unless of course a magical 4th option, 5 liter, 450hp, 30mpg V8 option existed.
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 574
Likes: 6
From: Texas - DFW Area
Have you owned a turbo vehicle before and understand Forced Induction vs NA? Having not seen any dyno graphs it's very possible that this 3.5L with Twin Turbos comes on much faster than a NA V8. A NA V8's graph will be more linear but a TT V6 will have a different graph with same power depending how Toyota tuned it with factory specs.
Pole Position
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,365
Likes: 29
From: Florida
This is why I think once people start driving these, the complaints of the missing V8 will likely be replaced with smiles.
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 67,908
Likes: 3,839
From: Maryland
Another thing aside from the long-term reliability of this engine, which frankly no one knows how it will last.
How in world does Toyota shave off 1 second in 0-60 times with 29 measly more HP then the outgoing model? Toyota, for all its talk, isn't exactly known for making light luxury vehicles.
415 vs 386 isn't exactly anything to crow about. Sounds like a big step up due to the "4," but do the math. I find their 0-60 numbers borderline outlandish and will believe it when I see a third party do it. I bet the new LS weighs about the same, exceeding 4000 lbs easily.
How in world does Toyota shave off 1 second in 0-60 times with 29 measly more HP then the outgoing model? Toyota, for all its talk, isn't exactly known for making light luxury vehicles.
415 vs 386 isn't exactly anything to crow about. Sounds like a big step up due to the "4," but do the math. I find their 0-60 numbers borderline outlandish and will believe it when I see a third party do it. I bet the new LS weighs about the same, exceeding 4000 lbs easily.
Speaking of torque, the LS500 has 442 ft/lbs, LS460 only has 360. Thats huge.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 845
Likes: 21
From: New Jersey
Ummm everyone on this forum is bashing the car saying it's not even close to Germans, but clearly they think otherwise so.... you guys might wanna reconsider your thoughts on this beast.
Last edited by imrankh24; Jan 9, 2017 at 03:33 PM.
Lead Lap
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,585
Likes: 24
From: Washington
Another thing aside from the long-term reliability of this engine, which frankly no one knows how it will last.
How in world does Toyota shave off 1 second in 0-60 times with 29 measly more HP then the outgoing model? Toyota, for all its talk, isn't exactly known for making light luxury vehicles.
415 vs 386 isn't exactly anything to crow about. Sounds like a big step up due to the "4," but do the math. I find their 0-60 numbers borderline outlandish and will believe it when I see a third party do it. I bet the new LS weighs about the same, exceeding 4000 lbs easily.
How in world does Toyota shave off 1 second in 0-60 times with 29 measly more HP then the outgoing model? Toyota, for all its talk, isn't exactly known for making light luxury vehicles.
415 vs 386 isn't exactly anything to crow about. Sounds like a big step up due to the "4," but do the math. I find their 0-60 numbers borderline outlandish and will believe it when I see a third party do it. I bet the new LS weighs about the same, exceeding 4000 lbs easily.