Will Lexus ever answer back?
Some great posts in here...some that leave my head shaking. I agree with the OP, Infra and I8ABMR generally.
In the eyes of the public (not just enthusiasts), Lexus is not responding in the following areas:
- Coupes - yes, now we have RC, but this is still not enough.
- Unibody CUVs/SUVs - We need an X5/Q7 competitor, badly
- Four door coupes - Mercedes started this as a fad, but now that BMW, Audi, Porsche and others are on board, it's recognized as a legitimate class and Lexus is completely absent
- High power, as discussed above
OP raises a good point about the guy who wants an LS F...maybe he is 1 in a million and has virtually no impact on sales volume by himself, but he has a wife, and kids, maybe grandkids, and neighbors, and probably a lot of colleagues, and friends at his country club, etc. Those people are impressionable, and have their own social circles as well.
These are important things to consider in relation to sales volume, yes, but more important to consider with brand image, perception and halo effect.
As much as Lexus has improved with some things, such as design and driving dynamics, they are still proving to be very slow to respond, and that's a major problem.
In the eyes of the public (not just enthusiasts), Lexus is not responding in the following areas:
- Coupes - yes, now we have RC, but this is still not enough.
- Unibody CUVs/SUVs - We need an X5/Q7 competitor, badly
- Four door coupes - Mercedes started this as a fad, but now that BMW, Audi, Porsche and others are on board, it's recognized as a legitimate class and Lexus is completely absent
- High power, as discussed above
OP raises a good point about the guy who wants an LS F...maybe he is 1 in a million and has virtually no impact on sales volume by himself, but he has a wife, and kids, maybe grandkids, and neighbors, and probably a lot of colleagues, and friends at his country club, etc. Those people are impressionable, and have their own social circles as well.
These are important things to consider in relation to sales volume, yes, but more important to consider with brand image, perception and halo effect.
As much as Lexus has improved with some things, such as design and driving dynamics, they are still proving to be very slow to respond, and that's a major problem.
Lead Lap
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Virginia
Lexus Test Driver
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From: NY
So you've been wrong before and you're wrong again. Lexus is indeed in DIRECT competition with those brands, especially here in America where they all focus on the luxury segment.
Yes BMW and Mercedes sell more worldwide, but they're also both more of a full-line type manufacturer in the other parts of the world with more extensive entry level offerings that Lexus doesn't need to tackle, it has Toyota for that.
The other Japanese luxury brands may also not offer the turbo powertrains that the Germans are, but that's because they're behind even Lexus, and none of them compete at the level that Lexus competes at, which is at the top with BMW and Mercedes. But Infiniti will soon be offering a 2.0L turbo that they're sourcing from Mercedes.
Yes BMW and Mercedes sell more worldwide, but they're also both more of a full-line type manufacturer in the other parts of the world with more extensive entry level offerings that Lexus doesn't need to tackle, it has Toyota for that.
The other Japanese luxury brands may also not offer the turbo powertrains that the Germans are, but that's because they're behind even Lexus, and none of them compete at the level that Lexus competes at, which is at the top with BMW and Mercedes. But Infiniti will soon be offering a 2.0L turbo that they're sourcing from Mercedes.
But infinity will soon be offering a 2.0 turbo, just like how acura has been rumored to offer a 2.2 turbo, just like lexus is rumored to offer a 2.0 turbo meaning they are all doing it at once If that doesn't tell you anything then i don't think I am getting my point across
Lexus Fanatic
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Lexus is in direct competition with BMW, Mercedes , and Audi, ( I think its ridiculous to say they are not imho) BUT they are in competition with their common more luxurious popular models. They have nothing to go head to head with any performance model except for the ISF and it always loses the comparison tests .
If people cared about performance, they would not get 528i over GS350.
IS also won many comparos against BMW, but it sells reasonably well. However, 80% (or more) of the sales are for IS250 which is dog slow, despite IS350 being much faster and only $3k more expensive.
RX and ES never won any comparo in the history, and they are best selling cars in the class. They are far away from any kind of performance.
BMW has record sales and their cars never drove worse in the history of brand. For the first time, 3 and 5 series are not benchmarks for the class anymore. Yet their sales are up. 320i outsells 335i, 528i sells similar to 535i and 550i sells peanuts.
Sad truth is that in BMW world, most BMW's sold in USA today are 4cl. Sure they are good 4cl engines but they are still 4cl engines. So much for those 550-650hp cars and "performance" brand.
So I am not sure what Lexus "needs" to do.
if we are talking about sales, what Lexus would need to do is offer more FWD models to rival A, B, CLA, A1, A2, A3, A4, Q1, Q3, etc, etc.
They could double their sales in 3-4 years by offering 3-4 new FWD based rivals to above.
They will certainly not raise sales by offering 520hp cars, or 550hp, or 650hp. But sure, we would all be all over these cars on forums and we could brag about them while we buy new 518d with 143hp.
Now, Lexus is lucky to have Toyoda at helm who cares about performance and enthusiasts, but that really has little to do with sales, if at all.
I must be thick headed because I can't understand the statement that "lexus is not in competition with other car makers."
As a consumer, if I'm shopping for a flagship, I'll be looking at the LS vs. S, 7, and A8.
I've been looking for a coupe and the RC has been high on my list b/c nothing from bmw, mb, or audi has been pleasing to me.
So if lexus doesn't have what the consumers want, they simply go across the street. I don't know how more business saavy do you have to be to understand that
If there was no mb, bmw, audi..., then you can say lexus has no direct competition or whatever phrase you want to use
At least lexus has the prestige to be grouped with Germans unlike acura and infiniti, not that I really care for this branding thing.
As a consumer, if I'm shopping for a flagship, I'll be looking at the LS vs. S, 7, and A8.
I've been looking for a coupe and the RC has been high on my list b/c nothing from bmw, mb, or audi has been pleasing to me.
So if lexus doesn't have what the consumers want, they simply go across the street. I don't know how more business saavy do you have to be to understand that
If there was no mb, bmw, audi..., then you can say lexus has no direct competition or whatever phrase you want to use
At least lexus has the prestige to be grouped with Germans unlike acura and infiniti, not that I really care for this branding thing.
Some great posts in here...some that leave my head shaking. I agree with the OP, Infra and I8ABMR generally.
In the eyes of the public (not just enthusiasts), Lexus is not responding in the following areas:
- Coupes - yes, now we have RC, but this is still not enough.
- Unibody CUVs/SUVs - We need an X5/Q7 competitor, badly
- Four door coupes - Mercedes started this as a fad, but now that BMW, Audi, Porsche and others are on board, it's recognized as a legitimate class and Lexus is completely absent
- High power, as discussed above
OP raises a good point about the guy who wants an LS F...maybe he is 1 in a million and has virtually no impact on sales volume by himself, but he has a wife, and kids, maybe grandkids, and neighbors, and probably a lot of colleagues, and friends at his country club, etc. Those people are impressionable, and have their own social circles as well.
These are important things to consider in relation to sales volume, yes, but more important to consider with brand image, perception and halo effect.
As much as Lexus has improved with some things, such as design and driving dynamics, they are still proving to be very slow to respond, and that's a major problem.
In the eyes of the public (not just enthusiasts), Lexus is not responding in the following areas:
- Coupes - yes, now we have RC, but this is still not enough.
- Unibody CUVs/SUVs - We need an X5/Q7 competitor, badly
- Four door coupes - Mercedes started this as a fad, but now that BMW, Audi, Porsche and others are on board, it's recognized as a legitimate class and Lexus is completely absent
- High power, as discussed above
OP raises a good point about the guy who wants an LS F...maybe he is 1 in a million and has virtually no impact on sales volume by himself, but he has a wife, and kids, maybe grandkids, and neighbors, and probably a lot of colleagues, and friends at his country club, etc. Those people are impressionable, and have their own social circles as well.
These are important things to consider in relation to sales volume, yes, but more important to consider with brand image, perception and halo effect.
As much as Lexus has improved with some things, such as design and driving dynamics, they are still proving to be very slow to respond, and that's a major problem.
Sticking with the OP: Will Lexus ever answer back? Short take yes, but as mentioned the reaction time is slow.
- RC and LF-CC give Lexus coupe and future convertible presence.
- Lexus needs to add two seats to the RX or redesign the GX / replace with a TX 7-seat crossover
- A four door coupe above the GS and below the LS is a must, and quickly becoming the chić must have vehicle
- TwinTurbo future is coming
- Material quality must significantly improve. enough of these rough grainy plastics - make these cars worth their asking price
- More customization to the buyer
- More six digit cars
- Offer more high line models that beckon exclusivity. It's not always about a business sense, but rather improving brand image
Toyota/Lexus has lost me as an owner, and is losing me as an enthusiast. Random example: I just saw a GS350 at Costco, and no lie - the Hyundai Genesis sedan is a WAY better looking car...more elegant and sportier looking.
Anyway, "new engines are coming", blah, blah, blah. WHEN?? How long are we supposed to wait for them to catch up?
Anyway, "new engines are coming", blah, blah, blah. WHEN?? How long are we supposed to wait for them to catch up?
By the time they catch up, the competition is going to make two steps forward.
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: CA
Lexus has no trouble catering to the moderately affluent segment (median incomes ~$350,000/year, median net worth ~$3.5 million)
There's a company called the luxury brand institute something or other (that's where I got those aforementioned numbers, by the way) that does surveys on brand prestige among people with roughly the incomes and net worths listed above, and Lexus often ranks top 3 in brand prestige along with Porsche (almost always ranked #1) and usually Mercedes (almost always ranked #2). Lexus and BMW usually switch places between #3 and #4 from year to year.
Sorry I don't have links on hand (I've bookmarked them long ago but I have like 1000 bookmarks and it's a pain to scroll through and find it) but I am sure of the numbers. The median net worth of respondents was actually $3.7 million if anyone cares.
The idea was to find a random, representative sample of the "middle class millionaire" segment and to see how they perceive various luxury brands.
Again, just to be absolutely clear this is not to say that Lexus owners have median incomes and net worths listed above. It's saying that people with median incomes and net worths listed above perceive Lexus as relatively prestigious, only behind Porsche and Mercedes but often ahead of BMW. Technically speaking the aforementioned income puts you barely into top 1% category and the aforementioned net worth probably puts you into top 1.5% or so.
There's a company called the luxury brand institute something or other (that's where I got those aforementioned numbers, by the way) that does surveys on brand prestige among people with roughly the incomes and net worths listed above, and Lexus often ranks top 3 in brand prestige along with Porsche (almost always ranked #1) and usually Mercedes (almost always ranked #2). Lexus and BMW usually switch places between #3 and #4 from year to year.
Sorry I don't have links on hand (I've bookmarked them long ago but I have like 1000 bookmarks and it's a pain to scroll through and find it
) but I am sure of the numbers. The median net worth of respondents was actually $3.7 million if anyone cares. The idea was to find a random, representative sample of the "middle class millionaire" segment and to see how they perceive various luxury brands.
Again, just to be absolutely clear this is not to say that Lexus owners have median incomes and net worths listed above. It's saying that people with median incomes and net worths listed above perceive Lexus as relatively prestigious, only behind Porsche and Mercedes but often ahead of BMW. Technically speaking the aforementioned income puts you barely into top 1% category and the aforementioned net worth probably puts you into top 1.5% or so.
Lead Lap
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 717
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From: CA
Now, incidentally, I'm willing to bet that a boatload of people in that aforementioned affluent category are probably in their late 50s or 60s and they may not be pining for a sleek, 500 HP $100,000 sports coupe.
Pole Position
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,602
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From: Singapore
Thanks for that thought provoking post BRADSGS4. Many points I agree with especially about going all in with performance models.
I LOLed but I have to agree with this sentiment. I hope Lexus really makes a statement with the upcoming RC-F and GS-F and completely embarrasses AMG/M/RS on the track.
I LOLed but I have to agree with this sentiment. I hope Lexus really makes a statement with the upcoming RC-F and GS-F and completely embarrasses AMG/M/RS on the track.
Last edited by natnut; Nov 12, 2013 at 09:29 PM.
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,285
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From: NV
What Lexus provides with the IS-F is a car that is reasonably fun to drive* while offering a baseline level of reliability, quality, and luxury. That's why I bought one. As an overall package, it is a magnificent daily driver. Those qualities are what Lexus has focused on since day one and are why they've been able to build their brand into what it is today. And those should be what they continue to offer with models like the RC-F and production version of the LF-LC. Why Lexus should need to compete in absurd horsepower wars with BMW or Benz on top of this just boggles my mind.
The focus on reliability/quality/luxury is why it's taken them so long to bring the "200t" engine to market, and to be honest, I admit I'm surprised they're actually doing it. Should the "200t" fail to be a reliable and high-quality product, that would be a massive blow to the Lexus brand. "Luxury" brands like BMW and Benz that have a history of questionable reliability to begin with can afford to sacrifice reliability for performance; the marketplace has and will continue to let them get away with it. Lexus can't do that.
If you are impatient enough that waiting for reliability, quality, and luxury is not something palatable, then Lexus is not the brand for you. Even the LFA took a long time to get to market and was criticized for being "overpriced" and "underpowered", at least by those who hadn't sat in or driven one. Those who have, and especially those who know how much some LFAs like P014/032 have been driven with minimal maintenance, all go on and on about how much reliability, quality, and luxury the LFA has.
If Lexus loses its association with reliability, quality, and luxury, what exactly is left?
*especially later models with revised suspension and steering ECU.
And how many of their supposed sport sedans (to be fair, this applies somewhat to the whole industry) come with a limited slip diff? It took them 2 years to pull their heads out on that one for the IS-F. Pathetic. Which by the way...no thanks on the big bore V8 - if I want that, I'll buy domestic. Same goes for you, Infiniti. The Japanese must bring back our boost immediately! > : ( lol
Last edited by gengar; Nov 12, 2013 at 11:37 PM.
Pole Position
Joined: Jun 2011
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From: socal
See the other thread comparison between M5 and E63 then I said what lexus is going to match german performance cars? Toyota corp. has nothing to show in the + 500hp/500tq range. Looking around and I can only see the best Tundra and the lonely ISF which are the most powerful they've been making. The LFA is gone now. God damn it, they' ve been too busy sucking profit w/ Prius for a decade now. All they care is sale & profit. It will take Toyo/Lexus at least 3 years R&D and produce new powerful +500 hp engine..
Last edited by ISF350; Nov 13, 2013 at 06:44 PM.
What I find interesting, and somewhat sad, is the number of times over the last decade that we've heard Lexus say they're becoming leaner, meaner and more responsive to market changes. They've been criticized for being slow to react for years, they know it, they acknowledge it... but don't really do much to change it. Supposedly the board was cut in half, Lexus is directly accountable to Akio, etc. all to speed up decision making times and get things done. I am still not convinced, but we will see.
RC and NX are good signs that Lexus is reacting to segments where it has been absent, but being quick to react means more than just entering new markets - improving technology, upgrading engines, making more meaningful updates between redesign and refresh, etc.
Aside from low volume hybrids, the GS line has gained 6 total horsepower since 1998. 300HP GS 400 in 1998 to 306 hp GS 350 in 2014. Very sad. Lexus and Toyota must be dumping the majority of their R&D budget into hybrids, because Toyota's entire engine portfolio is aging at this point. The GR V6 is a decade old with no updates, the 5.7L iForce V8 is 8 years old with no updates, the 4.6L V8 is not even acceptable, but the 2.5L AR I4 was redesigned in 2009. Joy. That's mostly a Toyota engine. We do know that the 2.0T is on the horizon, but Lexus has had plenty - PLENTY of time and opportunities to make subtle updates to the UR and GR engines over nearly a decade.
Lexus used to care. The 2GS threw the gauntlet down with 300 horsepower in 1998 and it's been a race ever since, though Lexus has dropped out. When the 3GS debuted, BMW and Mercedes dropped 500HP M5s and E55/63s. 4GS is here, and the Germans are pushing 600hp now. I legitimately worry that Lexus is being left so far behind that they may not be able to catch up.
Some will raise the point that Lexus is playing a different game and investing in hybrids - this is true - but GS450h makes up, what, 5% of GS sales? Not one lick of advertising, either. We have no IS 300h here. RXh is a solid core and ES 300h is great as well, but Lexus entire core product portfolio - IS, ES, GS, RX - is concentrated between 200 and 306hp. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. GS needs additional differentiation away from the ES and the best way to do it, IMO, would be a further upgraded V6, a higher power option, be it V8 or V6T, and a GS F.
It's quite obvious that when the German's want to do something, they put their mind to it and make it happen almost immediately. New engines debuting left and right, new variants, new models, refreshes, redesigns, new technology, 7 and 8ATs across the line, etc. I'm not even talking about high dollar sports cars, vehicle customization programs or high performance models - this is just their core, ranging from entry level to full size. Cadillac has now joined the big boys and is playing to win with plenty of $$ backing from GM. For the life of me, with all of Toyota's financial resources, I can not understand why we don't have a larger, faster, more comprehensive, more defined Lexus brand.
I don't mean for this post to downplay any of Lexus recent success - design is improving, driving dynamics are best in class and we do have some exciting new models coming down the line. However, Lexus seems to be taking two steps forward and one step back...all while it's competitors are confidently blazing ahead with no reservations. It's a little discouraging.
RC and NX are good signs that Lexus is reacting to segments where it has been absent, but being quick to react means more than just entering new markets - improving technology, upgrading engines, making more meaningful updates between redesign and refresh, etc.
Aside from low volume hybrids, the GS line has gained 6 total horsepower since 1998. 300HP GS 400 in 1998 to 306 hp GS 350 in 2014. Very sad. Lexus and Toyota must be dumping the majority of their R&D budget into hybrids, because Toyota's entire engine portfolio is aging at this point. The GR V6 is a decade old with no updates, the 5.7L iForce V8 is 8 years old with no updates, the 4.6L V8 is not even acceptable, but the 2.5L AR I4 was redesigned in 2009. Joy. That's mostly a Toyota engine. We do know that the 2.0T is on the horizon, but Lexus has had plenty - PLENTY of time and opportunities to make subtle updates to the UR and GR engines over nearly a decade.
Lexus used to care. The 2GS threw the gauntlet down with 300 horsepower in 1998 and it's been a race ever since, though Lexus has dropped out. When the 3GS debuted, BMW and Mercedes dropped 500HP M5s and E55/63s. 4GS is here, and the Germans are pushing 600hp now. I legitimately worry that Lexus is being left so far behind that they may not be able to catch up.
Some will raise the point that Lexus is playing a different game and investing in hybrids - this is true - but GS450h makes up, what, 5% of GS sales? Not one lick of advertising, either. We have no IS 300h here. RXh is a solid core and ES 300h is great as well, but Lexus entire core product portfolio - IS, ES, GS, RX - is concentrated between 200 and 306hp. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. GS needs additional differentiation away from the ES and the best way to do it, IMO, would be a further upgraded V6, a higher power option, be it V8 or V6T, and a GS F.
It's quite obvious that when the German's want to do something, they put their mind to it and make it happen almost immediately. New engines debuting left and right, new variants, new models, refreshes, redesigns, new technology, 7 and 8ATs across the line, etc. I'm not even talking about high dollar sports cars, vehicle customization programs or high performance models - this is just their core, ranging from entry level to full size. Cadillac has now joined the big boys and is playing to win with plenty of $$ backing from GM. For the life of me, with all of Toyota's financial resources, I can not understand why we don't have a larger, faster, more comprehensive, more defined Lexus brand.
I don't mean for this post to downplay any of Lexus recent success - design is improving, driving dynamics are best in class and we do have some exciting new models coming down the line. However, Lexus seems to be taking two steps forward and one step back...all while it's competitors are confidently blazing ahead with no reservations. It's a little discouraging.
Lexus Fanatic
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From: Waiting for next track day
GS has won so many comparos (every?) against BMW and yet it sold 1200 last month.
If people cared about performance, they would not get 528i over GS350.
IS also won many comparos against BMW, but it sells reasonably well. However, 80% (or more) of the sales are for IS250 which is dog slow, despite IS350 being much faster and only $3k more expensive.
RX and ES never won any comparo in the history, and they are best selling cars in the class. They are far away from any kind of performance.
BMW has record sales and their cars never drove worse in the history of brand. For the first time, 3 and 5 series are not benchmarks for the class anymore. Yet their sales are up. 320i outsells 335i, 528i sells similar to 535i and 550i sells peanuts.
Sad truth is that in BMW world, most BMW's sold in USA today are 4cl. Sure they are good 4cl engines but they are still 4cl engines. So much for those 550-650hp cars and "performance" brand.
So I am not sure what Lexus "needs" to do.
if we are talking about sales, what Lexus would need to do is offer more FWD models to rival A, B, CLA, A1, A2, A3, A4, Q1, Q3, etc, etc.
They could double their sales in 3-4 years by offering 3-4 new FWD based rivals to above.
They will certainly not raise sales by offering 520hp cars, or 550hp, or 650hp. But sure, we would all be all over these cars on forums and we could brag about them while we buy new 518d with 143hp.
Now, Lexus is lucky to have Toyoda at helm who cares about performance and enthusiasts, but that really has little to do with sales, if at all.
If people cared about performance, they would not get 528i over GS350.
IS also won many comparos against BMW, but it sells reasonably well. However, 80% (or more) of the sales are for IS250 which is dog slow, despite IS350 being much faster and only $3k more expensive.
RX and ES never won any comparo in the history, and they are best selling cars in the class. They are far away from any kind of performance.
BMW has record sales and their cars never drove worse in the history of brand. For the first time, 3 and 5 series are not benchmarks for the class anymore. Yet their sales are up. 320i outsells 335i, 528i sells similar to 535i and 550i sells peanuts.
Sad truth is that in BMW world, most BMW's sold in USA today are 4cl. Sure they are good 4cl engines but they are still 4cl engines. So much for those 550-650hp cars and "performance" brand.
So I am not sure what Lexus "needs" to do.
if we are talking about sales, what Lexus would need to do is offer more FWD models to rival A, B, CLA, A1, A2, A3, A4, Q1, Q3, etc, etc.
They could double their sales in 3-4 years by offering 3-4 new FWD based rivals to above.
They will certainly not raise sales by offering 520hp cars, or 550hp, or 650hp. But sure, we would all be all over these cars on forums and we could brag about them while we buy new 518d with 143hp.
Now, Lexus is lucky to have Toyoda at helm who cares about performance and enthusiasts, but that really has little to do with sales, if at all.
I am referring to performance models. Lets take sales out of the equation .Also the IS, GS, 5 series, etc are not performance models. I am talking M, AMG, etc. I see your point. I am referring to the hardcore performance cars that are absent at Lexus. I know "performance" models are low volume even if you do include the GS, but these model have to be produced to elevate the brand image. Thats is what I am referring to. Lexus' idea of building a low volume fun to drive car was simply not killing the GS . Yes the GSF is coming BUT too little too late. Whats upsetting is that when it hits the market it will most likely be a tweaked version of the ISF motor that may make 50HP more while the others are making 100hp more than that. MY point is that if they are going to enter this arena they need to play by the rules and run with the rest. People who buy these cars are obsessed with HP. Its a huge bragging right . If I drop 70-100k on a car I want it to be the most powerful ideally. Thats just how I roll.
Lexus makes too many normal boring cars ( including their F sport line up with no added HP). Its time to put the accountants in a closet, turn off the lights, and build a car that will grab the attention and respect of the world. And it needs to be done for 100K or less. Look at the GTR. Nissan could do it. Lexus is not inferior and they need to step up. I love the LFA but 375K is just ridiculous for the average Lexus buyer even if they are more affluent. The GTR has done amazing things for Nissans image in the US. Lexus needs the same kind of machines. FUN to drive and mind blowing but it still has to be priced inside the stratosphere. I have high hopes for an RCF F sport that breathes fire and will have beautiful brake lights for the competition to gaze at as it pulls on them.........but Im not holding my breath. Although we are getting better, its too little tool ate , plus the other guys have already been "better" at making these cars. Lexus is way behind in this segment and seems to be talking out of both sides of their mouth. They want younger buyers, more respect in UK, and to elevate brand image. They just need to do it faster and stop playing catch up. GM is making better motors for their platforms ( and I will admit that and I hate GM's products usually)
Last edited by I8ABMR; Nov 13, 2013 at 03:33 PM.
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What I find interesting, and somewhat sad, is the number of times over the last decade that we've heard Lexus say they're becoming leaner, meaner and more responsive to market changes. They've been criticized for being slow to react for years, they know it, they acknowledge it... but don't really do much to change it. Supposedly the board was cut in half, Lexus is directly accountable to Akio, etc. all to speed up decision making times and get things done. I am still not convinced, but we will see.
RC and NX are good signs that Lexus is reacting to segments where it has been absent, but being quick to react means more than just entering new markets - improving technology, upgrading engines, making more meaningful updates between redesign and refresh, etc.
Aside from low volume hybrids, the GS line has gained 6 total horsepower since 1998. 300HP GS 400 in 1998 to 306 hp GS 350 in 2014. Very sad. Lexus and Toyota must be dumping the majority of their R&D budget into hybrids, because Toyota's entire engine portfolio is aging at this point. The GR V6 is a decade old with no updates, the 5.7L iForce V8 is 8 years old with no updates, the 4.6L V8 is not even acceptable, but the 2.5L AR I4 was redesigned in 2009. Joy. That's mostly a Toyota engine. We do know that the 2.0T is on the horizon, but Lexus has had plenty - PLENTY of time and opportunities to make subtle updates to the UR and GR engines over nearly a decade.
Lexus used to care. The 2GS threw the gauntlet down with 300 horsepower in 1998 and it's been a race ever since, though Lexus has dropped out. When the 3GS debuted, BMW and Mercedes dropped 500HP M5s and E55/63s. 4GS is here, and the Germans are pushing 600hp now. I legitimately worry that Lexus is being left so far behind that they may not be able to catch up.
Some will raise the point that Lexus is playing a different game and investing in hybrids - this is true - but GS450h makes up, what, 5% of GS sales? Not one lick of advertising, either. We have no IS 300h here. RXh is a solid core and ES 300h is great as well, but Lexus entire core product portfolio - IS, ES, GS, RX - is concentrated between 200 and 306hp. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. GS needs additional differentiation away from the ES and the best way to do it, IMO, would be a further upgraded V6, a higher power option, be it V8 or V6T, and a GS F.
It's quite obvious that when the German's want to do something, they put their mind to it and make it happen almost immediately. New engines debuting left and right, new variants, new models, refreshes, redesigns, new technology, 7 and 8ATs across the line, etc. I'm not even talking about high dollar sports cars, vehicle customization programs or high performance models - this is just their core, ranging from entry level to full size. Cadillac has now joined the big boys and is playing to win with plenty of $$ backing from GM. For the life of me, with all of Toyota's financial resources, I can not understand why we don't have a larger, faster, more comprehensive, more defined Lexus brand.
I don't mean for this post to downplay any of Lexus recent success - design is improving, driving dynamics are best in class and we do have some exciting new models coming down the line. However, Lexus seems to be taking two steps forward and one step back...all while it's competitors are confidently blazing ahead with no reservations. It's a little discouraging.
RC and NX are good signs that Lexus is reacting to segments where it has been absent, but being quick to react means more than just entering new markets - improving technology, upgrading engines, making more meaningful updates between redesign and refresh, etc.
Aside from low volume hybrids, the GS line has gained 6 total horsepower since 1998. 300HP GS 400 in 1998 to 306 hp GS 350 in 2014. Very sad. Lexus and Toyota must be dumping the majority of their R&D budget into hybrids, because Toyota's entire engine portfolio is aging at this point. The GR V6 is a decade old with no updates, the 5.7L iForce V8 is 8 years old with no updates, the 4.6L V8 is not even acceptable, but the 2.5L AR I4 was redesigned in 2009. Joy. That's mostly a Toyota engine. We do know that the 2.0T is on the horizon, but Lexus has had plenty - PLENTY of time and opportunities to make subtle updates to the UR and GR engines over nearly a decade.
Lexus used to care. The 2GS threw the gauntlet down with 300 horsepower in 1998 and it's been a race ever since, though Lexus has dropped out. When the 3GS debuted, BMW and Mercedes dropped 500HP M5s and E55/63s. 4GS is here, and the Germans are pushing 600hp now. I legitimately worry that Lexus is being left so far behind that they may not be able to catch up.
Some will raise the point that Lexus is playing a different game and investing in hybrids - this is true - but GS450h makes up, what, 5% of GS sales? Not one lick of advertising, either. We have no IS 300h here. RXh is a solid core and ES 300h is great as well, but Lexus entire core product portfolio - IS, ES, GS, RX - is concentrated between 200 and 306hp. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. GS needs additional differentiation away from the ES and the best way to do it, IMO, would be a further upgraded V6, a higher power option, be it V8 or V6T, and a GS F.
It's quite obvious that when the German's want to do something, they put their mind to it and make it happen almost immediately. New engines debuting left and right, new variants, new models, refreshes, redesigns, new technology, 7 and 8ATs across the line, etc. I'm not even talking about high dollar sports cars, vehicle customization programs or high performance models - this is just their core, ranging from entry level to full size. Cadillac has now joined the big boys and is playing to win with plenty of $$ backing from GM. For the life of me, with all of Toyota's financial resources, I can not understand why we don't have a larger, faster, more comprehensive, more defined Lexus brand.
I don't mean for this post to downplay any of Lexus recent success - design is improving, driving dynamics are best in class and we do have some exciting new models coming down the line. However, Lexus seems to be taking two steps forward and one step back...all while it's competitors are confidently blazing ahead with no reservations. It's a little discouraging.
One thing also to consider the Germans have to move fast as they have to sell more volume to stay profitable. Lexus has Toyota behind it so the urgency to contribute to the bottom line is not as worrying, especially since Lexus produces 50% or so of the profits. So they can be slow, they don't need to rush.
Its one of those things I guess. As Gengar stated though, maybe we will just have to love slow and steady. Our GS F-sport had one hiccup, squeaky brakes which we replaced under a TSIB and it wasn't that big of a deal. Otherwise the car has been flawless reliability wise.