July 2013 Auto Sales Thread
08-02-13, 10:58 AM
#46
GS is not a hard car, I drove non F-Sport and it is pretty comfy.... if people wanted to buy GS over ES, they would have.... they dont.
08-02-13, 11:07 AM
#47
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The biggest point is that with the usually large ES sales, the GS *still* continues to sell quite well, despite all the cynics and haters saying GS sales wouldn't hold.
Why is it such a big deal if Lexus has the ES and GS? If both are excellent enough products, then the people WILL come and the sales WILL come.
With future GS variants coming, the GS will sell even better. The GS and ES are clearly differentiated enough that GS sales are holding strong. This was not the case as much in the past, but it is the case now.
Even with the new IS sales in July, GS sales have held strong. That can only mean that Lexus is attracting new buyers to the brand.
Why is it such a big deal if Lexus has the ES and GS? If both are excellent enough products, then the people WILL come and the sales WILL come.
With future GS variants coming, the GS will sell even better. The GS and ES are clearly differentiated enough that GS sales are holding strong. This was not the case as much in the past, but it is the case now.
Even with the new IS sales in July, GS sales have held strong. That can only mean that Lexus is attracting new buyers to the brand.
08-02-13, 11:43 AM
#49
disclaimer: I could argue my opinion all day on this so just take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. Right or wrong Obviously I'm one person and Lexus isn't going to change to make me happy... well not until I can rally troops against manufactuers cost-cutting 
- Super hard plastic on center console + rough
- Hard rough plastic bezel around analog clock
- Thinly padded doors
- Doors don't have that nice Lexus "thud" anymore and don't close properly
- Super thin glove box door
- Terrible hard plastics around the memory seat buttons
- Cheap lock/unlock switch + window switches vs nice ones from GS, RX, GX, 3IS
- Poor version of Remote Touch - controller is tiny vs RX, GS
- Cheaper feeling/looking Drive Mode Selector vs GS's
It's really a shame. In fact if they want to save money, they should use the parts bin from higher level models like the GS rather than use separate pieces
It's superior in terms of handling/steering over the outgoing model sure.
I'm discouraged that a cash cow like the ES and Toyota's massive $$$ money reserve is not used to reinstate something that was lost in translation year to year in cabin materials (2007-12 had the worst assembly - 2013 improved slightly) (NOTE: we're talking about materials not design)
Not with the ES IS and GS dynamics and GS as a whole on the other hand absolutely. Can't get over the ridiculously poor packaging of the IS Stateside though (yes I know Europe is better.. 
)
Lexus has been holding IS's in port to keep from flooding the market. Some dealers only have a handful, ours has about 17 in stock. A local competitor has been giving the 3IS away at invoice, my dealer and the rest of them in our area do somewhere between MSRP and Invoice
- Hard rough plastic bezel around analog clock
- Thinly padded doors
- Doors don't have that nice Lexus "thud" anymore and don't close properly
- Super thin glove box door
- Terrible hard plastics around the memory seat buttons
- Cheap lock/unlock switch + window switches vs nice ones from GS, RX, GX, 3IS
- Poor version of Remote Touch - controller is tiny vs RX, GS
- Cheaper feeling/looking Drive Mode Selector vs GS's
It's really a shame. In fact if they want to save money, they should use the parts bin from higher level models like the GS rather than use separate pieces
We do disagree on opinions of the ES. Its not that bad, I find it superior to the last gen and the cheap bits in the ES are no different than cheap bits in other cars or more expensive cars. It never came across as a big cost cutting exercise, it felt like a proper Lexus more than ever.
It is an entry level car, it simply won't be built like a GS. The IS has the same cost cutting as does every car in that class.
What is important is the ES is a hit, the ES 300h is a huge hit and consumers feel its not as bad as painted here. It remains the class leader.
It is an entry level car, it simply won't be built like a GS. The IS has the same cost cutting as does every car in that class.
What is important is the ES is a hit, the ES 300h is a huge hit and consumers feel its not as bad as painted here. It remains the class leader.
I'm discouraged that a cash cow like the ES and Toyota's massive $$$ money reserve is not used to reinstate something that was lost in translation year to year in cabin materials (2007-12 had the worst assembly - 2013 improved slightly) (NOTE: we're talking about materials not design)
IS and GS dynamics and GS as a whole on the other hand absolutely. Can't get over the ridiculously poor packaging of the IS Stateside though (yes I know Europe is better.. ) The biggest point is that with the usually large ES sales, the GS *still* continues to sell quite well, despite all the cynics and haters saying GS sales wouldn't hold.
Why is it such a big deal if Lexus has the ES and GS? If both are excellent enough products, then the people WILL come and the sales WILL come.
With future GS variants coming, the GS will sell even better. The GS and ES are clearly differentiated enough that GS sales are holding strong. This was not the case as much in the past, but it is the case now.
Even with the new IS sales in July, GS sales have held strong. That can only mean that Lexus is attracting new buyers to the brand.
Why is it such a big deal if Lexus has the ES and GS? If both are excellent enough products, then the people WILL come and the sales WILL come.
With future GS variants coming, the GS will sell even better. The GS and ES are clearly differentiated enough that GS sales are holding strong. This was not the case as much in the past, but it is the case now.
Even with the new IS sales in July, GS sales have held strong. That can only mean that Lexus is attracting new buyers to the brand.
08-02-13, 11:47 AM
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
So busy....crap....here you guys go..more to come later...I hope
BMW-24,043
Benz-23,648
Lexus-23,031
Cadillac-15,652
Audi-13,064
Infiniit-7,762
Lincoln-6,919
Buick- 16,393
Acura-15,150
3-9,890
C-7,604
ES- 6,089
A4/A5-4,706
G-3,680
IS 3,641
ATS-2,905
CTS-2,889
MKZ-2,809
TL-1,843
TSX-1,680
E-5,605
5- 4,857
A6- 2,061
GS -1,722
MKS- 1,038
RLX- 617
XF-589
M -372
7-851
LS-661
S- 577
XJ-570
Panamera-487
A8-452
Equus-173
BMW-24,043
Benz-23,648
Lexus-23,031
Cadillac-15,652
Audi-13,064
Infiniit-7,762
Lincoln-6,919
Buick- 16,393
Acura-15,150
3-9,890
C-7,604
ES- 6,089
A4/A5-4,706
G-3,680
IS 3,641
ATS-2,905
CTS-2,889
MKZ-2,809
TL-1,843
TSX-1,680
E-5,605
5- 4,857
A6- 2,061
GS -1,722
MKS- 1,038
RLX- 617
XF-589
M -372
7-851
LS-661
S- 577
XJ-570
Panamera-487
A8-452
Equus-173
Last edited by LexFather; 08-02-13 at 01:45 PM.
08-02-13, 01:38 PM
#51
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08-02-13, 03:45 PM
#53
Lexus Champion
disclaimer: I could argue my opinion all day on this so just take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. Right or wrong Obviously I'm one person and Lexus isn't going to change to make me happy... well not until I can rally troops against manufactuers cost-cutting
- Super hard plastic on center console + rough
- Hard rough plastic bezel around analog clock
- Thinly padded doors
- Doors don't have that nice Lexus "thud" anymore and don't close properly
- Super thin glove box door
- Terrible hard plastics around the memory seat buttons
- Cheap lock/unlock switch + window switches vs nice ones from GS, RX, GX, 3IS
- Poor version of Remote Touch - controller is tiny vs RX, GS
- Cheaper feeling/looking Drive Mode Selector vs GS's
It's really a shame. In fact if they want to save money, they should use the parts bin from higher level models like the GS rather than use separate pieces
It's superior in terms of handling/steering over the outgoing model sure.
I'm discouraged that a cash cow like the ES and Toyota's massive $$$ money reserve is not used to reinstate something that was lost in translation year to year in cabin materials (2007-12 had the worst assembly - 2013 improved slightly) (NOTE: we're talking about materials not design)
Not with the ES IS and GS dynamics and GS as a whole on the other hand absolutely. Can't get over the ridiculously poor packaging of the IS Stateside though (yes I know Europe is better.. )
Lexus has been holding IS's in port to keep from flooding the market. Some dealers only have a handful, ours has about 17 in stock. A local competitor has been giving the 3IS away at invoice, my dealer and the rest of them in our area do somewhere between MSRP and Invoice
- Super hard plastic on center console + rough
- Hard rough plastic bezel around analog clock
- Thinly padded doors
- Doors don't have that nice Lexus "thud" anymore and don't close properly
- Super thin glove box door
- Terrible hard plastics around the memory seat buttons
- Cheap lock/unlock switch + window switches vs nice ones from GS, RX, GX, 3IS
- Poor version of Remote Touch - controller is tiny vs RX, GS
- Cheaper feeling/looking Drive Mode Selector vs GS's
It's really a shame. In fact if they want to save money, they should use the parts bin from higher level models like the GS rather than use separate pieces
It's superior in terms of handling/steering over the outgoing model sure.
I'm discouraged that a cash cow like the ES and Toyota's massive $$$ money reserve is not used to reinstate something that was lost in translation year to year in cabin materials (2007-12 had the worst assembly - 2013 improved slightly) (NOTE: we're talking about materials not design)
Not with the ES
IS and GS dynamics and GS as a whole on the other hand absolutely. Can't get over the ridiculously poor packaging of the IS Stateside though (yes I know Europe is better.. ) Lexus has been holding IS's in port to keep from flooding the market. Some dealers only have a handful, ours has about 17 in stock. A local competitor has been giving the 3IS away at invoice, my dealer and the rest of them in our area do somewhere between MSRP and Invoice
If the ES was killed off tomorrow Lexus would be FORCED to make up for the sales difference by putting more effort into the IS and GS. There would be no other way. This would mean: better marketing for the IS/GS, better powertrains, better designs, better prices, more variants, innovative features, etc... Lexus has the brand equity and Toyota Motor Co. has the money, they're just lazy and conservative.
08-02-13, 04:53 PM
#54
The ES has been taking a step back with every generation, a lot like the Camry. This generation of ES was SUPPOSED to be out of this world. It was SUPPOSED to be the quietest sedan you could buy for the money. It was supposed to have a fine interior, it was supposed to have a stirring design. All of these promises were under delivered for the sake of cutting a few bucks off the starting price. If the ES is moving upmarket I'm fine with it, but it isn't. So what's the point of having a low end sedan become the focus of the brand's volume aspirations when they could instead focus on cars like the GS and IS.
If the ES was killed off tomorrow Lexus would be FORCED to make up for the sales difference by putting more effort into the IS and GS. There would be no other way. This would mean: better marketing for the IS/GS, better powertrains, better designs, better prices, more variants, innovative features, etc... Lexus has the brand equity and Toyota Motor Co. has the money, they're just lazy and conservative.
If the ES was killed off tomorrow Lexus would be FORCED to make up for the sales difference by putting more effort into the IS and GS. There would be no other way. This would mean: better marketing for the IS/GS, better powertrains, better designs, better prices, more variants, innovative features, etc... Lexus has the brand equity and Toyota Motor Co. has the money, they're just lazy and conservative.
08-02-13, 05:41 PM
#55
Unfortunately, Lexus cannot kill the ES that easily. It's like quitting your 6 figure job thinking maybe you'll find something better. They need to expand the GS line first. Build an entry level GS, bring the 300h, maybe bring back the 460, add the GS-F. The entry level model could be a 4 cyl, with a smaller navi and less options. That should bring the price down significantly. Until that's done, the ES is not going anywhere, anytime soon......
08-02-13, 06:21 PM
#56
Another thread hijacked by the ES haters. Give it a rest! 
I love my 2013 ES. I never would have even considered a pre 2013 model. Too much of an old man's car with bland looks and a numb feel. Judging by the sales figures, I'm not alone. They actually outsold the Avalon last month!
I love my 2013 ES. I never would have even considered a pre 2013 model. Too much of an old man's car with bland looks and a numb feel. Judging by the sales figures, I'm not alone. They actually outsold the Avalon last month!
08-02-13, 07:16 PM
#57
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What is wrong with Lexus rely heavily on ES and RX sales? Both Mercedes-Benz and BMW have two good selling models only and the rest of their lineups sell like crap, and I don't see people sneering at that?
08-02-13, 07:52 PM
#58
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Unfortunately, Lexus cannot kill the ES that easily. It's like quitting your 6 figure job thinking maybe you'll find something better. They need to expand the GS line first. Build an entry level GS, bring the 300h, maybe bring back the 460, add the GS-F. The entry level model could be a 4 cyl, with a smaller navi and less options. That should bring the price down significantly. Until that's done, the ES is not going anywhere, anytime soon......
The GS300h has already been released, coming to specific markets (not the U.S unfortunately) this winter. GS F is also coming... To be honest, I've never sat to an ES, and don't really know about the quality at all but it's one of the best selling sedans out there, not just in the U.S but also China and I would definitely love to see it in Europe.
08-02-13, 08:18 PM
#59
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disclaimer: I could argue my opinion all day on this so just take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. Right or wrong Obviously I'm one person and Lexus isn't going to change to make me happy... well not until I can rally troops against manufactuers cost-cutting
- Super hard plastic on center console + rough
- Hard rough plastic bezel around analog clock
- Thinly padded doors
- Doors don't have that nice Lexus "thud" anymore and don't close properly
- Super thin glove box door
- Terrible hard plastics around the memory seat buttons
- Cheap lock/unlock switch + window switches vs nice ones from GS, RX, GX, 3IS
- Poor version of Remote Touch - controller is tiny vs RX, GS
- Cheaper feeling/looking Drive Mode Selector vs GS's
It's really a shame. In fact if they want to save money, they should use the parts bin from higher level models like the GS rather than use separate pieces
- Super hard plastic on center console + rough
- Hard rough plastic bezel around analog clock
- Thinly padded doors
- Doors don't have that nice Lexus "thud" anymore and don't close properly
- Super thin glove box door
- Terrible hard plastics around the memory seat buttons
- Cheap lock/unlock switch + window switches vs nice ones from GS, RX, GX, 3IS
- Poor version of Remote Touch - controller is tiny vs RX, GS
- Cheaper feeling/looking Drive Mode Selector vs GS's
It's really a shame. In fact if they want to save money, they should use the parts bin from higher level models like the GS rather than use separate pieces
However, as you said yourself, the 2013 ES interior is better put together than the awful-looking 2007-2012 interior. I always hated that interior with the asymmetrical oval dash.
So it's not all bad, and the 2013 ES interior has improved in some ways. Can it be better? Yes. Will it be better? I'm confident they'll improve it. Now that the ES will be built in the future in North America, that will help *a lot* in terms of how much more they give to the ES budget, since it won't be affected by shipping costs from Japan or the currency exchange.
I'm sure Toyota would like a greater separation with the ES and Avalon interiors anyways.
Lexus has been holding IS's in port to keep from flooding the market. Some dealers only have a handful, ours has about 17 in stock. A local competitor has been giving the 3IS away at invoice, my dealer and the rest of them in our area do somewhere between MSRP and Invoice
So busy....crap....here you guys go..more to come later...I hope
BMW-24,043
Benz-23,648
Lexus-23,031
Cadillac-15,652
Audi-13,064
Infiniit-7,762
Lincoln-6,919
Buick- 16,393
Acura-15,150
3-9,890
C-7,604
ES- 6,089
A4/A5-4,706
G-3,680
IS 3,641
ATS-2,905
CTS-2,889
MKZ-2,809
TL-1,843
TSX-1,680
E-5,605
5- 4,857
A6- 2,061
GS -1,722
MKS- 1,038
RLX- 617
XF-589
M -372
7-851
LS-661
S- 577
XJ-570
Panamera-487
A8-452
Equus-173
BMW-24,043
Benz-23,648
Lexus-23,031
Cadillac-15,652
Audi-13,064
Infiniit-7,762
Lincoln-6,919
Buick- 16,393
Acura-15,150
3-9,890
C-7,604
ES- 6,089
A4/A5-4,706
G-3,680
IS 3,641
ATS-2,905
CTS-2,889
MKZ-2,809
TL-1,843
TSX-1,680
E-5,605
5- 4,857
A6- 2,061
GS -1,722
MKS- 1,038
RLX- 617
XF-589
M -372
7-851
LS-661
S- 577
XJ-570
Panamera-487
A8-452
Equus-173
Glad to see the TSX and TL bottom of the barrel in sales. Such ugly-looking cars.
The ES has been taking a step back with every generation, a lot like the Camry. This generation of ES was SUPPOSED to be out of this world. It was SUPPOSED to be the quietest sedan you could buy for the money. It was supposed to have a fine interior, it was supposed to have a stirring design. All of these promises were under delivered for the sake of cutting a few bucks off the starting price. If the ES is moving upmarket I'm fine with it, but it isn't. So what's the point of having a low end sedan become the focus of the brand's volume aspirations when they could instead focus on cars like the GS and IS.
If the ES was killed off tomorrow Lexus would be FORCED to make up for the sales difference by putting more effort into the IS and GS. There would be no other way. This would mean: better marketing for the IS/GS, better powertrains, better designs, better prices, more variants, innovative features, etc... Lexus has the brand equity and Toyota Motor Co. has the money, they're just lazy and conservative.
If the ES was killed off tomorrow Lexus would be FORCED to make up for the sales difference by putting more effort into the IS and GS. There would be no other way. This would mean: better marketing for the IS/GS, better powertrains, better designs, better prices, more variants, innovative features, etc... Lexus has the brand equity and Toyota Motor Co. has the money, they're just lazy and conservative.
Also, design-wise, the new ES does stir emotions, at least for me. Design-wise, it has the best-looking ES interior ever IMHO. I'm not talking materials, but purely design. The 2006 interior looks like a spruced-up Camry interior, and the 2007-2012 just looks weird. The new 2013 interior just looks good. Also they did a nice job on the exterior as well.
At first I was shocked, but now I totally understand why ES production is being moved to North America. They're separating the ES a little bit from the rest of the Lexus lineup. The ES is mainly a North American model, so they're giving North American operations more responsibility when it comes to the ES.
08-02-13, 08:23 PM
#60
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Some Toyota notes for July:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...ence+notes.htm
Excellent to see Toyota's fleet mix so low, it shows real, continued strong retail demand.
Also interesting that they're pulling ahead the release of the 2014 Corolla and 2014 Tundra. The old models are selling off faster than they thought, so the new models will be hitting dealers late August it seems.
Also impressive early stats for the new IS. Half of buyers new to Lexus, and lowest average age of any luxury model, impressive!
http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases...ence+notes.htm
Toyota Division
Sales of 170,363
Up 16.2 percent from last year
Toyota #1 retail brand in July
Fleet just 4.5 percent of mix
Finally
Production began this week for the new Corolla and Tundra
Couldn’t come at a better time
Both vehicles in relatively short supply
Pulling start of sales forward to later this month
As soon as we can get them from the factories
Taking a look at some early IS highlights
About half are new to the Lexus family
About two-thirds are male
Average age of 42
lowest of any luxury model
May be an indication why driving dynamics are so important
Sales of 170,363
Up 16.2 percent from last year
Toyota #1 retail brand in July
Fleet just 4.5 percent of mix
Finally
Production began this week for the new Corolla and Tundra
Couldn’t come at a better time
Both vehicles in relatively short supply
Pulling start of sales forward to later this month
As soon as we can get them from the factories
Taking a look at some early IS highlights
About half are new to the Lexus family
About two-thirds are male
Average age of 42
lowest of any luxury model
May be an indication why driving dynamics are so important
Also interesting that they're pulling ahead the release of the 2014 Corolla and 2014 Tundra. The old models are selling off faster than they thought, so the new models will be hitting dealers late August it seems.
Also impressive early stats for the new IS. Half of buyers new to Lexus, and lowest average age of any luxury model, impressive!