If Lexus becomes to reliant on the ES and RX to drive sales, they risk becoming like Acura. If they drop the ES and don't bother to fill the sales gap by focusing on the RWD models, they will become like Infiniti. Right now we sit at the middle of that dangerous sea-saw, and once ES moves to NA, we will probably lean towards an Acura future. Imagine 8k to 10k ES sales per month, bye bye GS and IS. GS will probably be dropped after this generation and IS will be moved to some Toyota platform to cut costs. Meanwhile the RAV-4 based CUV will join the RX and ES as the top sellers for Lexus, and we become Acura (TL, RDX, MDX). You may laugh now, but it's a very real possibility.

The scenario gets even more bleak, because Acura today isn't exactly a shining beacon of sales success. Over time once the focus shifts heavily to 3 FWD Toyota based cars, the Lexus brand will lose more and more of its brand equity, to the point that even those three cars will be effected, negatively impacting their sales. Volume will get lower and lower until the brand becomes almost completely neglected. Will 2023 Lexus = 2013 Acura? It's very easy for that to happen.

Slow down there sport. Lexus in the US is clearly Tier 1, it and BMW/Merc are far and away the top of the luxury class sales wise. Even the ES and RX are $40k+ luxury cars, even if we prefer the focus be on the GS/IS.

Lexus in the rest of the world is respected, they simply don't have the product to appeal to different markets. Diesels and smaller cars are needed, and the only answer Lexus has is relatively expensive hybrids. BMW and Audi go as far as to make LWB versions of their 3er and A4 to appeal to Chinese tastes. Many even manufacture their cars in China. We see nothing like this from Lexus, and for good cause. Globally Toyotas begin to fill those segment gaps, MB/BMW don't have that luxury, and Audi already overlap quite a bit with VW/SEAT/SKODA.

 

Lexus WAS once Tier 1 in the 90s to mid-2000s.
But their current product line is just too limited.
When they begin to have cars to compete with the following, then we can again call them Tier 1:

BMW - Z4, 3Series coupe/conv/wagon, 6Series Coupe/GrandCoupe......M cars
MB - C coupe, E coupe, SLK, SL, CL, CLS.....AMG cars
Audi - TT, A5, A7, R8....S/RS cars

Listen new IS and GS are GREAT, and the RC-F/GS-F hopefully will be the start of a new Lexus mentality.

 

Really if this is not a REBADGE - what is it???

Lexus GX


Toyota Prado


Lexus LX


Toyota LandCruiser

 

He was responding to the notion that the ES and Camry are rebadges, something that has never been true. They've always been a platform cousin, but not a rebadge.

As for the GX, the LC Prado isn't sold in the US so it isn't quite a big deal. The LX/Land Cruiser is a rebadge, nobody will ever deny it, but the LC is already a luxury vehicle and the LX just further improves upon it.

As for the ES, I don't quite get what the fuss is about. I would love for the GS to become Lexus' best selling sedan, but there is still a lot to like in the ES. I did notice there was some hard plastic in there, but it was still a nice car, to the point I still wouldn't feel screwed buying one and it's still better than a 3-series or C-class interior. I'd also take it over that hideous MKZ.

 

TO YOU. In the INDUSTRY Lexus is considered TIER 1. To the COMPETITION, Lexus is considered TIER 1.

You continue to harp on limited edition cars and you had absolutely no gotdamn retort to my post. So now you jump elsewhere like every month in the sales thread. No one is saying the Germans don't have more prestige (even though surveys posted constantly have Lexus ahead of some every year) and that the Germans don't offer a more superior and exciting lineup.

You are coming on a Lexus forum in every thread trying to explain how Lexus is inferior.

So you ignore the post then jump to the GX and LC. Then you have no idea the interiors are completely different and in LC/LX have different bodies.

You clearly showed everyone you don't know the difference between rebadge and platform sharing.

Now I go to enjoy an awesome dinner as this is just ridiculous.

 

Why are u so insecure?
Thank u for telling me i dont know the difference. I guess im blind bec the pics show the cars are IDENTICAL in every way.

Listen Toyota/Lexus is a huge Corporation out to make lots of $$$$.
Lexus GX is a REBADGE for the Toyoyta Prado
Lexus LX is a REBADGE for the Toyota LC
Lexus ES shares almost all its mechanical parts with the Toyota Camry/Avalon. This includes chassis, engine, trans, etc.

These are FACTS that u cant dispute.

Lexus is not a Tier 1 brand anymore due to its limited model offering, limited drivetrains, limited customization etc.

High sales dont equal Tier 1 luxury.
Lexus is really making most sales at the lower end of the luxury level with the RX and ES.

10 yrs ago there was much less competition. Just MB and BMW.
Now u have Audi, Caddillac, Porsche, Jaguar all bringing great products to the table

 

Also i dont come here to put down Lexus. I have been a member for over 10yrs. But im not blind and not a fanboy.

This is car chat - i would never go to the ES forum bad mouthing the car.

The LFA was awesome. If i had the $$$ it would be in my garage for sure.
New GS and IS are GREAT.
New RC coupe should be great.
Most of all im thrilled about the RC-F and the fact it may have the V8 - as i will buy this or the M4.

 

LC and Prado are both premium products though.

 

You act as if you're new to the auto industry.

Lexus traditionally takes MORE time than the Germans with new product because they take their time on making sure their cars are reliable and durable long-term. They do extensive testing and fine-tuning, more so than the Germans.

The Germans are well known for treating their customers as guinea pigs, releasing new models with various problems that owners must endure.

Could Lexus use more investment? Yes, and Toyota is investing more into Lexus. The Lexus lineup has expanded with models like the CT, and F-Sport variants as well as hybrid variants.

We will soon be getting the RC coupe as a new model, as well as the production variant of the LF-LC. Lexus is expanding, but they're doing it smartly.

I'm surprised to see all this coming from you.
I have to be blunt though, you have really no clue what you're talking about when it comes to Toyota's long-term vision for Lexus.

None of the things you mention will actually happen in reality. Building the ES in North America makes sense in the long-term, as they save money and don't have to use as much cost cutting on the ES, compared to it being produced in Japan.

 

I disagree. One platform, many variants. It's how the Germans are doing it. So where is the 4 door coupe model based on the GS platform? Where is the GS coupe? Where is the LS coupe/convertible? They've already spent time developing the platforms. Lack of investment indeed.

Building the ES in north america may very likely boost ES sales. The GS will hold at current levels maybe for another year, but it will decline. Eventually with high ES sales and very low GS sales Lexus may deem the GS irrelevant and unnecessary, and drops the car. With the GS dropped, the IS (which by this point due to neglect has also declined in sales) will no longer have a sibling to share its platform next generation, so it will be moved to the next gen FR-S platform to save costs.

How is any of this far fetched? It almost happened with this generation! The GS will need serious attention and investment to compete with the next gen E-class and 5 series (the development of which will be driven by profits made from the huge sales numbers of the current models - regularly over twice that of the GS). By then Toyota may deem the sales not good enough to warrant that investment, and drops the car entirely to focus on the ES. Once the GS goes, so will Lexus as we know it.

 

You still don't get it. Lexus doesn't make a million variants of every model, that's not their way. Doing so will make the brand lose focus.

Where is the GS-based coupe? It's coming, that's the RC coupe.
Where is the LS-based coupe? That might be the LF-LC production model, or that model may use a different platform.

No it never happened this generation. Don't believe in the urban myths.

Akio Toyoda has taken direct responsibility of the Lexus brand. You still don't get what that means.

 

It's not that I don't get it, I don't buy it. Toyota Motor Sales has other priorities. Toyota Motor Sales will kill those models that aren't profitable.

It's basic logic. When the E-class and 5 series are doing 5000 sales a month and the GS in its largest market is struggling to break 2000, how does one expect the next generations of these cars to be comparable? If Lexus spends as much as Merc and BMW to develop the next GS, then the GS won't be profitable. Akio Toyoda can take personal responsibility for whatever he wants, once the numbers stop adding up, bye bye GS.

 

Sure thing then. I won't go any further in this.

You can sit there and eagerly await the demise of the GS and Lexus to turn into Acura, and I'll stick with my opinions.

 

Wow so correcting your vast misinformation is insecure? You simply have no understanding of the difference of a rebadge vs platform sharing and continue to harp on it when you see it fit. You have no understanding of Tier 1 since you ignore what the industry, experts and popular opinion knows. Instead we should believe you, the guy that doesn't know the difference between a rebadge and platform sharing.

This is rich

Then as usual, you ignore all the econo cars sold by the Germans posted but love to bring up AMG, M etc.

This is utterly hilarious.

 

Toyota killing the IS and GS is not happening. GS is successful outside of NA too, especially Japan and is very important in other parts of the world where there is no ES. The IS too. Toyota sells vehicles like the Crown and Mark X that are similar to the IS and GS, there is no way RWD luxury sedans below the LS are going away, even in the future. Toyota has been doing that for decades and they will not be stopping. The GS-F and coupe, RC, and future IS variants will also further solidify the platform's future.

As for the GS being killed off, it's often misinterpreting Akio Toyoda's own words. He said he wanted to kill the GS because he did not like the direction the 4GS was taking during development. He is what gave the 4GS we have today. He didn't want to kill it due to sales.