View Poll Results: Should Lexus kill off the GX for a new CUV (TX)?
Yes
40
41.24%
No
24
24.74%
I think there is room for both vehicles in the Lexus lineup.
33
34.02%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll
Lexus RX / GX / TX speculation
12-07-13, 07:53 AM
#61
Lexus Fanatic
I can think of only ONE Lexus product that was a TRUE simple rebadging of an existing Toyota product, and that was the ill-fated ES250 which didn't last very long....though two others come close. The older GX460 was relatively close to its Toyota 4Runner cousin in overall design (in some markets called the Prado), but still had some significant differences, especially in the interior. The original IS300 was close to being a Toyota Altezza rebadge, but it also had a different drivetrain here in the U.S.
As for the ES250 being "ill fated"...the ES250 was only supposed to be a stopgap until the ES300 was ready. Lexus had focused all their attention on the LS as the face of Lexus, but dealers wanted a cheaper more entry level car...so they slapped some stuff on the Camry and sold it as the ES250 until their entry level car was ready. It actually sold pretty well.
I personally think a 3 row crossover a'la the QX60 priced between $50-60k would be a HUGE seller for Lexus. Look how well the QX60 sells even with its drawbacks...
12-07-13, 11:48 AM
#62
You forget the LX. The original LX was as much a straight rebadge as the ES250. In fact, the second gen LX wasn't much different. The original GX had WAY more differentiation from the domestic market 4Runner, and was basically a rebadged Land Cruiser Prado. There is nothing visibly shared between a US 4Runner and a GX, nor has there ever been. Not one body panel, window, etc. The Prado (and thus the GX) and the 4Runner share a platform and some drivetrain options, but thats all.
As for the ES250 being "ill fated"...the ES250 was only supposed to be a stopgap until the ES300 was ready. Lexus had focused all their attention on the LS as the face of Lexus, but dealers wanted a cheaper more entry level car...so they slapped some stuff on the Camry and sold it as the ES250 until their entry level car was ready. It actually sold pretty well.
I personally think a 3 row crossover a'la the QX60 priced between $50-60k would be a HUGE seller for Lexus. Look how well the QX60 sells even with its drawbacks...
As for the ES250 being "ill fated"...the ES250 was only supposed to be a stopgap until the ES300 was ready. Lexus had focused all their attention on the LS as the face of Lexus, but dealers wanted a cheaper more entry level car...so they slapped some stuff on the Camry and sold it as the ES250 until their entry level car was ready. It actually sold pretty well.
I personally think a 3 row crossover a'la the QX60 priced between $50-60k would be a HUGE seller for Lexus. Look how well the QX60 sells even with its drawbacks...
12-07-13, 12:01 PM
#63
Lexus Fanatic
Originally Posted by SW13GS
The original GX had WAY more differentiation from the domestic market 4Runner,
12-07-13, 12:11 PM
#64
Lexus Fanatic
As for the ES250 being "ill fated"...the ES250 was only supposed to be a stopgap until the ES300 was ready.
12-07-13, 12:52 PM
#65
Lexus Fanatic
You remember incorrectly. Not one interior component or exterior body panel or piece of trim is shared. The Prado was sold in other markets before the GX even existed, the GX is a Rebadged Land Cruiser Prado, not a 4Runner.
OK...I'll agree with that, except, of course, the LX had a more trim and equipment than the Land Cruiser.
the ES250's sales were dismal
To put that in perspective, the ES250 in 1990 outsells every Lexus model in 2013 except the RX, ES & IS. Fact.
and it fooled almost no one in the showrooms, even those who are not car-saavy-like us.
Last edited by SW17LS; 12-07-13 at 01:28 PM.
12-07-13, 01:47 PM
#66
Lexus Fanatic
You can disagree all you want, you're still wrong. To say the first gen GX is a rebadged 4Runner is to say an RX is a rebadged Highlander. Its just not accurate, they share a platform and some powertrain options but thats all.
You remember incorrectly. Not one interior component or exterior body panel or piece of trim is shared. The Prado was sold in other markets before the GX even existed, the GX is a Rebadged Land Cruiser Prado, not a 4Runner.
You remember incorrectly. Not one interior component or exterior body panel or piece of trim is shared. The Prado was sold in other markets before the GX even existed, the GX is a Rebadged Land Cruiser Prado, not a 4Runner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_GX
On April 13, 2010, Consumer Reports in the United States urged customers not to buy the 2010 model year GX 460, giving it a “Don’t buy, Safety Risk” label, its first such vehicle rating since 2001, following the results of a "lift-off oversteer" emergency test. This label was lifted on May 7, 2010.[18] In the high-speed test, the SUV was quickly turned with no pedal input,[19] causing a sideways slide before the vehicle stability control (VSC) initiated a full stop.[19] Consumer Reports said that the VSC acted too slowly, and if a wheel hit a curb or slid off the pavement, a rollover accident could occur. The shared-platform Toyota 4Runner passed the test
Now, of course, as you indicate, that doesn't mean they are twins or a true rebadge...but they did share the same platform, which was the point I was trying to make.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-07-13 at 01:51 PM.
12-07-13, 02:05 PM
#67
Lexus Fanatic
Correct...its a shared platform...not a rebadge. Lots of vehicles share that platform, the 4Runner, GX, Land Cruiser Prado, the FJ Cruiser, the Tacoma truck. Is the FJ Cruiser a rebadged 4Runner? How about the Tacoma? Neither is the GX.
No, its not. You said that the GX was the only other vehicle other than the ES250 that was just a rebadged Toyota product. This is what you said:
That statement is just not true. The 1st Gen GX is no closer to the 4 Runner than the second Gen. Both are rebadged Land Cruiser Prados. All you have to do is look at pictures to see that:
03 4Runner:
03 GX:
Its plainly clear that these vehicles do not share any body panels.
This is a 2003 Land Cruiser Prado:
_02.jpg)
Its plainly clear that rearward of the A pillar the GX is a Land Cruiser Prado.
Even inside, the GX is a Land Cruiser Prado with wood:
03 4Runner:
03 GX:
They share the same corporate Toyota steering wheel, but thats all. When you look at the Prado, its clearly the same as the GX:
but they did share the same platform, which was the point I was trying to make.
n the entire history of Lexus, since 1990, I can think of only ONE Lexus product that was a TRUE simple rebadging of an existing Toyota product, and that was the ill-fated ES250 which didn't last very long....though two others come close. The older GX460 was relatively close to its Toyota 4Runner cousin in overall design (in some markets called the Prado), but still had some significant differences, especially in the interior.
03 4Runner:
03 GX:
Its plainly clear that these vehicles do not share any body panels.
This is a 2003 Land Cruiser Prado:
Its plainly clear that rearward of the A pillar the GX is a Land Cruiser Prado.
Even inside, the GX is a Land Cruiser Prado with wood:
03 4Runner:
03 GX:
They share the same corporate Toyota steering wheel, but thats all. When you look at the Prado, its clearly the same as the GX:
12-07-13, 05:37 PM
#68
Lexus Fanatic
Here's a quote from Wikipedia's official GX write-up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_GX
On April 13, 2010, Consumer Reports in the United States urged customers not to buy the 2010 model year GX 460, giving it a “Don’t buy, Safety Risk” label, its first such vehicle rating since 2001, following the results of a "lift-off oversteer" emergency test. This label was lifted on May 7, 2010.[18] In the high-speed test, the SUV was quickly turned with no pedal input,[19] causing a sideways slide before the vehicle stability control (VSC) initiated a full stop.[19] Consumer Reports said that the VSC acted too slowly, and if a wheel hit a curb or slid off the pavement, a rollover accident could occur. The shared-platform Toyota 4Runner passed the test
Now, of course, as you indicate, that doesn't mean they are twins or a true rebadge...but they did share the same platform, which was the point I was trying to make.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_GX
On April 13, 2010, Consumer Reports in the United States urged customers not to buy the 2010 model year GX 460, giving it a “Don’t buy, Safety Risk” label, its first such vehicle rating since 2001, following the results of a "lift-off oversteer" emergency test. This label was lifted on May 7, 2010.[18] In the high-speed test, the SUV was quickly turned with no pedal input,[19] causing a sideways slide before the vehicle stability control (VSC) initiated a full stop.[19] Consumer Reports said that the VSC acted too slowly, and if a wheel hit a curb or slid off the pavement, a rollover accident could occur. The shared-platform Toyota 4Runner passed the test
Now, of course, as you indicate, that doesn't mean they are twins or a true rebadge...but they did share the same platform, which was the point I was trying to make.
12-07-13, 05:43 PM
#69
Lexus Fanatic
You can disagree all you want, you're still wrong. To say the first gen GX is a rebadged 4Runner is to say an RX is a rebadged Highlander. Its just not accurate, they share a platform and some powertrain options but thats all.
You remember incorrectly. Not one interior component or exterior body panel or piece of trim is shared. The Prado was sold in other markets before the GX even existed, the GX is a Rebadged Land Cruiser Prado, not a 4Runner.
But 90% of the interior panels and the body panels glass were 100% shared with the Land Cruiser. Even today the Land Cruiser and LX share body panels...its the only Lexus product outside of the ES250 that has ever shared any body panels with a US Spec Toyota.
Do you just make this stuff up? They only sold the ES250 for one and a half years...it sold 19,534 units in 1990, and 17,942 units in 1991 where it was not available for a full model year due to the debut of the ES300. To put that in perspective they sold 42,806 LS400s in 1990. So The ES250, a car that was created at the last minute to fulfill dealerships desires for another model to sell in addition to the LS at the beginning of Lexus' run accounted for 31% of the brand's total sales...hardly "dismal" in context.
To put that in perspective, the ES250 in 1990 outsells every Lexus model in 2013 except the RX, ES & IS. Fact.
37,476 people is "almost no one"?
You remember incorrectly. Not one interior component or exterior body panel or piece of trim is shared. The Prado was sold in other markets before the GX even existed, the GX is a Rebadged Land Cruiser Prado, not a 4Runner.
But 90% of the interior panels and the body panels glass were 100% shared with the Land Cruiser. Even today the Land Cruiser and LX share body panels...its the only Lexus product outside of the ES250 that has ever shared any body panels with a US Spec Toyota.
Do you just make this stuff up? They only sold the ES250 for one and a half years...it sold 19,534 units in 1990, and 17,942 units in 1991 where it was not available for a full model year due to the debut of the ES300. To put that in perspective they sold 42,806 LS400s in 1990. So The ES250, a car that was created at the last minute to fulfill dealerships desires for another model to sell in addition to the LS at the beginning of Lexus' run accounted for 31% of the brand's total sales...hardly "dismal" in context.
To put that in perspective, the ES250 in 1990 outsells every Lexus model in 2013 except the RX, ES & IS. Fact.
37,476 people is "almost no one"?
The LX450 was also a rebadge of the LC.
12-07-13, 06:34 PM
#70
Lexus Fanatic
12-07-13, 07:31 PM
#71
Lexus Fanatic
Auto manufacturers are generally moving away from cookie-cutter rebadges because, unlike back in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s, that no longer works today. In fact, that is the main reason (among several) why Ford dumped its Mercury division....the majority of Mercury products were simply slow-selling rebadged Fords with very little difference except minor trim/equipment and (you guessed it)...... the badge.
12-07-13, 07:53 PM
#72
Lexus Fanatic
I understand the difference. Rebadges generally include common bodies, chassis, interiors, and (usually) drivetrains. Shared platforms can have have more significant differences above the general chassis-level.
Auto manufacturers are generally moving away from cookie-cutter rebadges because, unlike back in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s, that no longer works today. In fact, that is the main reason (among several) why Ford dumped its Mercury division....the majority of Mercury products were simply slow-selling rebadged Fords with very little difference except minor trim/equipment and (you guessed it)...... the badge.
Auto manufacturers are generally moving away from cookie-cutter rebadges because, unlike back in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s, that no longer works today. In fact, that is the main reason (among several) why Ford dumped its Mercury division....the majority of Mercury products were simply slow-selling rebadged Fords with very little difference except minor trim/equipment and (you guessed it)...... the badge.
04-28-14, 09:45 AM
#73
Lexus is developing a seven-seat crossover - report
Could be called the TX
According to a recent report, Lexus is working on a seven-seat crossover.
Details are limited but Automotive News is reporting the company could develop an all-new crossover or add a third row of seating to the next-generation RX which is slated to arrive in late 2015.
It remains unclear which direction the company is leaning but Lexus USA's Group Vice President and General Manager said "We feel like we're missing a 35,000-units-a-year opportunity. We're working hard to rectify that." Jeff Bracken went on to say "We could bring it to market in 2016 or 2017."
While nothing is official, speculation suggests the model could be called the TX and it be based on either the front-wheel-drive platform from the Toyota Camry or the rear-wheel drive platform from the Lexus IS / GS.
According to a recent report, Lexus is working on a seven-seat crossover.
Details are limited but Automotive News is reporting the company could develop an all-new crossover or add a third row of seating to the next-generation RX which is slated to arrive in late 2015.
It remains unclear which direction the company is leaning but Lexus USA's Group Vice President and General Manager said "We feel like we're missing a 35,000-units-a-year opportunity. We're working hard to rectify that." Jeff Bracken went on to say "We could bring it to market in 2016 or 2017."
While nothing is official, speculation suggests the model could be called the TX and it be based on either the front-wheel-drive platform from the Toyota Camry or the rear-wheel drive platform from the Lexus IS / GS.
04-28-14, 10:14 AM
#74
Lexus weighs the best way to add 7-seat crossover
NEW YORK -- Lexus plans to offer a seven-seat crossover, either by bringing out a new vehicle or by increasing the size of the venerable RX 350.
"Third-row seating is the No. 1 issue we hear from dealers," Lexus Division chief Jeff Bracken said at the auto show here. "We feel like we're missing a 35,000-units-a-year opportunity. We're working hard to rectify that."
Lexus' crossover mainstay is the RX 350, a mid-sized five-seater that in the best of economic times has sold more than 100,000 units a year.
The RX is based on the platform of the Toyota Highlander, which was redesigned this year. But the Lexus variant won't arrive until late 2015, to make room for the launch of the compact NX 200t and NX 300h five-seat crossovers arriving this winter.
Lexus has a seven-seat SUV -- the GX 460 -- but it is a body-on-frame SUV with a trucklike ride. There has been speculation that a car-based seven-seat crossover would reduce the need for the GX 460, but a Lexus source said the GX 460 is highly profitable for the automaker, even at low volumes.
It has been 11 years since Lexus unveiled the HPX seven-seat, car-based crossover concept at the New York auto show -- and seven years since a LF-Xh crossover concept appeared at the 2007 Tokyo Motor Show. Plans for a production version of the LF-Xh were halted with the recession.
Now, such a vehicle appears back on the agenda. Toyota has applied for a trademark for the TX nameplate. Toyota product planners are secretive about whether the TX would use the Highlander-Camry-Avalon front-wheel-drive architecture for packaging benefits, or use the Lexus IS/GS sedans' rear-wheel-drive architecture for a sportier feel.
Still, the TX coding could merely be for a seven-seat variant of the RX 350. The 2014 Highlander kept the same 109.8-inch wheelbase, but gained nearly 3 inches of overall length to 191.1 inches. Despite the length increase, the Highlander's third-row seat is cramped, which might not mesh with Lexus owners' luxury requirements.
"It could be any number of solutions," Bracken said. "We could bring it to market in 2016 or 2017. If we can get it, that's the priority. We won't be bothered if it steps on RX. We want it."
"Third-row seating is the No. 1 issue we hear from dealers," Lexus Division chief Jeff Bracken said at the auto show here. "We feel like we're missing a 35,000-units-a-year opportunity. We're working hard to rectify that."
Lexus' crossover mainstay is the RX 350, a mid-sized five-seater that in the best of economic times has sold more than 100,000 units a year.
The RX is based on the platform of the Toyota Highlander, which was redesigned this year. But the Lexus variant won't arrive until late 2015, to make room for the launch of the compact NX 200t and NX 300h five-seat crossovers arriving this winter.
Lexus has a seven-seat SUV -- the GX 460 -- but it is a body-on-frame SUV with a trucklike ride. There has been speculation that a car-based seven-seat crossover would reduce the need for the GX 460, but a Lexus source said the GX 460 is highly profitable for the automaker, even at low volumes.
It has been 11 years since Lexus unveiled the HPX seven-seat, car-based crossover concept at the New York auto show -- and seven years since a LF-Xh crossover concept appeared at the 2007 Tokyo Motor Show. Plans for a production version of the LF-Xh were halted with the recession.
Now, such a vehicle appears back on the agenda. Toyota has applied for a trademark for the TX nameplate. Toyota product planners are secretive about whether the TX would use the Highlander-Camry-Avalon front-wheel-drive architecture for packaging benefits, or use the Lexus IS/GS sedans' rear-wheel-drive architecture for a sportier feel.
Still, the TX coding could merely be for a seven-seat variant of the RX 350. The 2014 Highlander kept the same 109.8-inch wheelbase, but gained nearly 3 inches of overall length to 191.1 inches. Despite the length increase, the Highlander's third-row seat is cramped, which might not mesh with Lexus owners' luxury requirements.
"It could be any number of solutions," Bracken said. "We could bring it to market in 2016 or 2017. If we can get it, that's the priority. We won't be bothered if it steps on RX. We want it."
04-28-14, 10:45 AM
#75
[BLexus Yet To Commit To New Crossover With Third-Row Seats, May Launch Stretched RX Instead [/B]
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...hed-rx-instead
Talk of a new Lexus crossover with third-row seats dates back several years, with Lexus even rolling out a concept of just such a vehicle, the HPX, as far back as 2003. The last we heard, Lexus was looking at launching a new crossover, possibly named the TX, as a replacement for the truck-based GX SUV. But based on recent comments from senior Lexus executive Jeff Bracken, it appears the automaker is yet to commit to a new crossover with third-row seats.
"It could be any number of solutions," Bracken told Automotive News (subscription required) when asked about such a vehicle being launched. "We could bring it to market in 2016 or 2017.”
Bracken said launching a crossover with third-row seats was a priority because there is strong demand for a crossover with more than the five seats of the RX, but didn't confirm whether a new one was coming. Lexus does have the GX and LX SUVs, but both of these feature truck-like body-on-frame construction and don’t match the fuel economy of crossovers offered by rivals.
Instead of replacing the GX, which is a highly profitable model for Lexus, the automaker may simply launch a stretched version of the next-generation RX. The next RX, which is due in late 2015, will share its platform with the latest Highlander, which already offers a third row, so building a version for Lexus with the third row intact shouldn’t be too difficult.
"It could be any number of solutions," Bracken told Automotive News (subscription required) when asked about such a vehicle being launched. "We could bring it to market in 2016 or 2017.”
Bracken said launching a crossover with third-row seats was a priority because there is strong demand for a crossover with more than the five seats of the RX, but didn't confirm whether a new one was coming. Lexus does have the GX and LX SUVs, but both of these feature truck-like body-on-frame construction and don’t match the fuel economy of crossovers offered by rivals.
Instead of replacing the GX, which is a highly profitable model for Lexus, the automaker may simply launch a stretched version of the next-generation RX. The next RX, which is due in late 2015, will share its platform with the latest Highlander, which already offers a third row, so building a version for Lexus with the third row intact shouldn’t be too difficult.