Toys4RJill

Exactly, you got it, Toyota Avalon and Lexus models are designed from the get-go to be quiet in the design and engineering. They are designed to not "make" the noise whereas Buick makes the noise but then the engineers hide the noise or "mask" it.

When you look at the Avalon vs a Buick, a Buick still fails to achieve a sub .30 drag coefficient. A turbo is not exactly quiet vs a V6 in the Avalon or the Lexus, and Lexus/Toyota now have small wind bumps near the mirrors, and lights that help deflect wind flow, thus making the Avalon and Lexus vehicles quiet from the design and not from the masking of the sound.

mmarshall

The point I was making, though, was that, in some cases (such as with tires and transmissions), Buick, at least today, does design (or select) components to be quiet from the start. This was especially the case with the Verano, which, except for some engine noise at higher RPMs, generally achieves full-size quietness (or better) in a compact platform. That's why people who think it is nothing but a upmarket Cruze are often surprised when they drive it.

Of course, I agree with you that Lexus was a master of noise-isolation from the start, and didn't need to resort to Quiet Tuning methods later on.....though the latest ES350 seems like it has slipped somewhat.

I don't want to get into stereotypes too much here, but many of the older people who often buy these cars demand quiet, as they often have weak hearing and can't efficiently carry on a converasation in some noisier vehicles.

LexFather

It is of my opinion when a car looks good, people will willingly put up with any negatives about it, no matter how glaring. People want to be in good looking cars.

mmarshall

I once got a good lesson in just how subjective styling can be. About ten years ago or so (maybe a little more), I was at a Pontiac/GMC shop with my recently-retired supervisor (who had asked me to go shopping with him and his wife for a new Chevy Suburban or Yukon XL). We were looking a new silver Yukon XL, equipped more or less the way he wanted it, when a fairly young couple came in, fell in love with a white Pontiac Aztek sitting out on the lot, took it out for a test-drive, brought it back, and then took it home a short time later. My ex-supervisor was incredulous........he looked at me and asked "Are they serious?" Even the salespeople were surprised (they hadn't seen an Aztek sell that quickly either)....though they did their best not to show it.

The lesson, of course, is that beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder.


(BTW, he also took that Yukon XL home that day).

LexFather

^^^ That is not the norm. Quite a few ugly vehicles sell to people and quite frankly a lot of people are aesthetically challenged. My point is in most cases, people seem to have working eyes and they want to be seen in good looking cars the majority/masses would agree looks good.

mmarshall

Outside of maybe the drivetrain, nothing about an Aztec was the norm.

Aron9000

I must say my mom's old 2000 Avalon is a complete plush mobile. I love the way it rides, on its dinky 15" wheels. It reminds me of an old Buick or Cadillac in how smooth it operates, it even has a bit of wallow and float in its ride, although that might be the old OEM struts on it.

I will also say that low profile tires do not TOTALLY ruin a ride. I went from 60 series tires on 15" rims to 45 series tires on 18" rims with my 1992 Lexus SC300. It really doesn't ride any firmer, but the main thing is noise. Yes the low profile tires are a slight bit noiser, but you mainly HEAR the thunk more than feel it when you hit a pothole or expansion joint on a bridge.

spwolf

by now, it seems that people love the Avalon... sales up by more than 3x.

LexBob2

I had a 2004 Avalon XLE and while it was well built, plush and soft riding. The JBL sound system was nice too. However the steering and handling was absolutely terrible. On anything other than a straight, smooth road it was OK, but throw in a curve, hill or less than good roads and it was a handful to keep going straight, with constant corrections needed and zero enjoyment to drive. The next gen (2006?) was an improvement.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

good points, and certainly a quieter design is better than just adding weight by trying to cover it up.

on a related note hondas have always had pretty quiet engines, but very little sound insulation, so there's lots of road noise that comes into the cabin. they've been using active noise cancellation in recent years - not sure how well it works, but in the pilot i was in a while back, it was pretty worthless as far as i could tell.

in recent years, the direct injection in lexus engines produce a lot more (ticking) racket than older engines, in the interest of performance and fuel economy. this is masked generally by sound insulation when the windows are closed.

anyway, i understand what you're saying, but quiet is quiet when you're inside. a ford f-150 truck does not exactly have a quiet engine when you stand beside it, but it's vault-like quiet inside. it's really impressive.

and while the avalon may have a quiet engine and good aerodynamics, the new one i drove recently was not THAT quiet, mainly road noise coming through.

once again, a trade off of cost, what's acceptable, and meeting other goals of fuel economy, performance, noise, etc.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

some people, sure. i mean some people still drove Jaguars when they were a complete POS, but good looking.

but that doesn't explain the success of vehicles like the kia soul, jeep liberty, honda element, nissan juke or cube, etc.

mmarshall

That doesn't neceessarily mean a suspension fault or design. Alignment problems (particularly front wheel toe-out) often causes that. So does worn shocks/struts....which is simple wear and tear with mileage.

People who bought those older Avalons didn't care about handling. They wanted a magic-carpet ride.

..............see what I mean?

mmarshall

Although light-years better than the old Lucas-system Jags, the newer ones are still considered well below average in reliability.

My brother has a three-year-old Soul and loves it. Along with newer Optimas, it seems to be one of the most successful vehicles in customer-satisfaction that the company has ever introduced.

LexBob2

My Avalon was a well maintained low mileage car and still the steering and handling were not good at all. For me, those factors negated any positives for a soft ride. While nice enough, it was a forgettable car.

robloc93

No one will ever be happy, people always called the Avalon boring and an "old man's car", but as soon as Toyota made the care firmer and a little more driver oriented, people still *****.....no way to make everyone happy