LexFather

Agreed, while Hyundai has built better cars compared to the crap they made in the past they still are not seen as break throughs with world firsts or best in class. They simply added more players to the field, respectable ones.

Its not like the Equus is faster, more luxurious, quieter, sportier, more MPG, more features, etc for a lesser price. It is a good entry for less.

Another worry is potential resale value and how will this car hold up after 100,000 miles. The Equus offers free maintenance for 50k. Well many cars in this class easily are driven past that. So after 50k, you have to drive down to the Hyundai dealer, it no longer gets picked up. How will this car hold up after 5-10-15 years? We are also unsure.

IS-SV

^^, All very good points, I have the same concerns.

During my visit(s) to San Jose car show, I noticed a lack of interest in Equus by attendees, although other Hyundai models were getting plenty of attention especially the Sonatas. I do remember the LS460 and S-class being unlocked and people were constantly getting in/out of cars and inspecting thoroughly.

mmarshall

That's very interesting, because at the D.C. Show, the Equus was one of the very few other new models there that was getting the kind of public attention that the Chevy Volt was. Perhaps it may just reflect the differences in the basic auto-buying market between the D.C. and SJ areas. On the West Coast, for example, more buyers are generally younger and less-conservative, automotively-speaking, than here in D.C. The Equus, of course, is a fairly conservatively-styled traditional luxury car designed to appeal to a fairly conservative crowd.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

no it's that govt workers in dc are overpaid and looking for a cushy ride for the foul traffic. california is broke and people want a nice but cheap car.

IS-SV

Yes good observations showing contrasts, and everyday is somewhat different at the shows.

Volt, new 5 series, MB S and E-classes, Sonata Hybrid were a few of the cars receiving way more attention than the Equus at SJ car show.

At the country club 1/2 mile from my house (a private golf club with a fairly conservative base), the S-class is the most popular large lux sedan by far. But to some degree, West Coast lux car buyers are often younger than expected (often tech people).

mmarshall

Well, it's not necessarily a matter of money and incomes...or even heavy traffic, of which we have some of the country's worst. Downtown D.C. streets (and some of the ones in the suburbs as well) are in poor shape, with potholes and broken pavement, so there's a reason local people like a cushy suspension. In FL, where you live, many roads tend to be glass-smooth from the warm climate, and suspension/ride comfort is less of an issue.


Yes and no.....depends on the part of the state you're talking about. Parts of L.A. region, Orange County, San Francisco, and the part of the state IS-SV lives in (Silicon Valley) have healthy incomes and car-buying tastes. SoCal, for example, didn't get to be the center of the country's auto culture for nothing, although the D.C. area, in some ways, is catching up. Too bad, though, that some parts of the state, particularly the extremely liberal bastion around Berkeley, are so anti-car that they would have us all riding bicycles. They would hold their noses while buying a Chevy Volt, Extended-Range Prius, or even a pure-electric.

mmarshall

Recent Hyundai products have done pretty well in the reliability department....from Average to Much-Better-Than-Average, according to Consumer Reports. So, while it is true that the Equus is new and untested (and I mentioned that in the review), and only time will tell, it is not likely that Hyundai, after introducing a series of relatively reliable cars in the last 10 years, is going to screw up on their most expensive flagship. If they do, it will be a fluke.

And I certainly wouldn't consider having to drive my own car to the dealership after 50,000 miles an inconvienience, or a deal-breaker. Lexus, for example, (as far as I know) even on the more expensive LS460, doesn't pick it up for you even when brand-new. So why complain about a Hyundai shop not doing it after 5 years? In fact, except for some relatively simple underhood jobs that I can do at home myself, I'd rather be AT the dealership myself, WITH the car, when they're working on it, unless they are going to keep it overnight or for several days.

YEH

It's not just bland, but also has lines that don't appeal as much to me (I prefer more linear, masculine sheetmetal; for instance, the new Passat is a pretty bland/conservative design, but I like it better than the design for the Equus).

Thanks. Methinks that you are in the minority here.

True, but I don't think Hyundai would have seen the level of improvement they did if they were still using Mitsu components.

Well, reportedly, the R-Spec will get both a sportier suspension and steering tuning, but I guess we're just going to have to wait and see.

Aside from the materials used for the dash/center stack, the Equus isn't really deficient in any material sense compared to the LS (and according to C&D, is better than the LS in certain respects.

Bringing up the quality of materials for the dash/center stack shouldn't take more than $500-700 dollars.

Remember, if Hyundai sold the Equus under a separate brand/dealer network, that would add an additional $10-12K to the price of the Equus; plus, Lexus has built up its brand image where they can factor in a higher profit margin, even taking into account the diff. in currency valuation for the won and yen compared to the dollar.

Taking into account inflation, the price of the LS400 is right about where the Equus is priced today and that's w/ Toyota having to factor in the cost of a new brand and dealer network (it's the reason why GM and the Germans had suspicions that Toyota wasn't making any $$ on the LS400, at least for the first couple of years).

Speaking of the LS, a loaded LS460 approaches being $20K cheaper than a loaded S Class (if I'm not mistaken) - so does that mean "you get what you pay for?"

And in M. Karesh's review of the IS350 AWD, he points out that it is about $6K cheaper than a comparably equipped BMW 335ix (w/ a comparably equipped G37x being about $8K less than the BMW).


Actually, they have a proprietary sheetmetal stamping method which can stamp increasingly complicated sheetmetal at a lower cost.

The reason why non-luxury cars had rather mundane sheetmetal is that it costs more to stamp more intricate and complicated designs, but Hyundai found a way to do it for less, which is why they can do rather complicated (or busy) designs such as the Sonata.

Also, Hyundai owns part of a high-tech steelmill - which is why they can use more high strength/tensile steel throughout their vehicles than their competitors.

And speaking of value - a well equipped V6 Genesis coupe comes w/ torsen limited slip differential and Brembo brakes while the G37c does not.

The G37c has the nicer interior, but that always wasn't the case (the G35 initially had a dash that wasn't really any better than what is in the GenCoupe today).

YEH

In a very, very competitive auto marketplace (a lot more competitive than what it was 10 yrs ago, much less 20 yrs ago), how many automakers have more than 1-2 models that are considered "best in class"?

And besides, considering the Sonata has been picked as the mainstream mid-size sedan of choice by significantly more auto publications than any other, the Sonata can be considered best in class (for now, that is), altho, I would opt for the Optima.

So why should anyone buy the FT-86 since we are also unsure of its reliability?

TRDFantasy

The reason why MOST cars have "non-complicated sheetmetal" is because intricate designs often alienate buyers, and don't appeal to the majority. Bland designs appeal more easily to the majority, and most automakers try and offer what the market wants, instead of trying to tell the market what it should buy.

Please provide proof that "Hyundai uses more high tensile strength steel" than their competitors.

For exotic or exclusive cars, the body is usually hand-made.

For mass-market cars, having intricate or complicated styling doesn't make sense.

That would be like a food company expecting it's complex chocolate/cocoa/vanilla/rasberry ice cream to be as popular as vanilla.

Toyota has long proven itself in terms of the long-term reliability of their vehicles. Hyundai has not yet proven itself to be that good in terms of long-term reliability.

LexFather

The same rhetoric in every Hyundai thread. Look no one sees the Equus as better, it is just cheaper though it is still a good car. The LS no matter the price is seen as one of the best cars on the planet. How that fact is lost here is beyond me.

Sorry but the LS and Equus interiors are not close. The Equus interior is something from the 1990s.

What does the G37 and G35 have to do with anything? What does the IS 350 and 335 have to do with anything? Stop slinging poo to try to make your redundant posts work.

Then you bring up the FT? What does that have to do with anything? Your thinking and pro-Hyundai shades have you desperate to make any comparison no matter how irrelevant or ridiculous. The point is Hyundai has never built luxury vehicles before therefore long term reliability is unproven and they still have a lot of work to do changing people's minds they no longer build crap.

Toyota has built sports cars since the 2000GT (Supra, MR2 etc etc) so we know they know how to build sports cars, they just have not built any. So again its an apples to oranges comparison and should not even be compared.

You are here twisting words, not using logic and just finding ways to argue in every Hyundai thread here, completely ignoring any positive comments made about the cars or brands.

News flash, not everyone on the planet or on a car forum not Hyundai will see things how you want to see them.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i disagree with that reasoning. ALL car sheetmetal is complicated. it all has lots of subtle curves. i do agree that wilder designs don't appeal to the majority.

i think that's completely wrong too. if you don't LEAD with design, you fail. a design we today think of as 'bland'' was almost certainly dramatic when it was introduced. example look at each gen of camry... each quite a radical change from a prior one.

while that might have been true 30 years ago, i believe that's quite wrong today. even an F1 body is not 'hand made'.

it makes perfect sense. the sonata is selling very well with intricate and complicated styling.

no it wouldn't. cars are much more complex buying decisions than ice cream. also, in case you haven't noticed, there's HUNDREDS of variations of ice cream, even vanilla and now ice cream / yoghurt blends. bottom line, ice cream isn't simple either.

agreed, although what do you mean by long term?

nice WAG but even if that were true, that would increase the selling price of the vehicle several thousand.

yes, i believe it does. the LS is an awesome car. but mercedes offers more variations and flexibility in ordering, a more sophisticated suspension, and i believe a superior interior and exterior in intricate details. again don't get me wrong, the LS is beautiful, but i find the exterior (esp. rear/front bumpers) to be a bit plain, and worse, is the tacked on trim for the 'sport' model, vs. the complete distinctive bumpers/side rails etc. for AMG trim level S class, etc.

again, i think the 335 *is* worth the difference over the IS350 in any opinion. more refined handling, more options, love the inline6 with turbo(s), more rear seat room, a rear seat that folds down for more flexible storage, and much better wheel/tire fitment. the current 3 series interior is a bit blah, but the IS interior is too.

so yes, i still believe you basically get what you pay for.

anyway, back to the Equus which i think is a 'nice try' and i like the 'no dealer visit' idea and ipad manual, but i don't think the car is going to do very well.

Joeb427

iTrader: (1)

I agree with your post.
Especially the highlighted above.

LexFather

Its all relative. You get a V-6 S-class for V-8 LS money in Europe, or even a small diesel S-class with no features. Remember we don't get their diesel/V-6 cheaper S-class here yet. There is a even a 4 cylinder S-class!

The thing is even if the S-class is more expensive, people buy it b/c they feel it is WORTH the money. Mercedes has established the S-class where people feel no matter the price, it is best in class. Same with the LS, people feel no matter the cost it is best in class. The LS maybe cheaper but people buy it not based on price but on other merits, the cheaper base price is just added incentive (mind you most LSs are optioned 10-20k higher than the base MSRP. They feel it is WORTH the money. People do buy 100k LSs and even 130k LSs in 600h L form. It is ridiculous for anyone to suggest that a bunch of base model LSs are being sold and people buy the LS based on price only when it has a 20 year history of success here for selling based on what the LS is, not how it is priced. Notice as the price has jumped from 35k to 130k loaded the LS still sells well. People feel it is worth the money.

The Equus is selling based on price first then its other capabilities. It is 55k-65k loaded which is E-class/GS money. Its even less than an E-class with tons of options. No one in their right mind can say the Equus is best in the LS/A8/S/7/Panamera/XJ etc class, not even close. It just finished dead last in a comparo with the entire competition. I am sure the next gen will be better.

TRDFantasy

I guess we have different definitions of what complicated sheet metal is.

History has proven that to be incorrect however. The original Taurus and Caravan were somewhat radical designs, but not that radical. They didn't alienate the marketplace, and became popular. Now they are viewed as somewhat bland but still nice vehicles, styling-wise.

Ford tried to "lead" with design with it's infamous 3rd-gen Taurus, and they FAILED. I think it's not about leading with design. I think it's more simple than that; if you alienate the market, then you fail. Also, I think there is a BIG difference between radical and new, and that distinction must be made. Just because a model has new and fresh styling, does not make it radical. Going back to the 3rd gen Taurus, even now on the streets it looks strange and alienating styling-wise. I'm positive in 10-15 years the current Sonata will still look weird and alienating to a lot of people.

I mentioned this in another thread, but I feel this must be repeated here. Good/bland/elegant styling is timeless. Well-styled cars from the 1950s and 1960s are still considered good-looking today. Ugly cars are also timeless. Many ugly designs from decades ago are still ugly today. People never get used to ugly, contrary to what some may believe. To add further to this, alienating styling I strongly feel remains alienating. A lot of "love or hate" designs from the 50s, 60s, and 70s still alienate people today.

It's also quite easy for an automaker to "lead" design in totally the wrong direction, where the market can shun such products, and that would be a major fail for that automaker.

A lot of modern supercars still have bodies that are at least partially hand-made. A lot of parts on F1 cars are still hand-made.

We can only agree to disagree on this. Past few months, the Sonata in my eyes has not been "selling very well" and has been outsold by dated competition that is due to be redesigned. It will only get worse once redesigned competition comes out, as the Sonata is currently the newest midsize on the market, IIRC. Many months ago last year the Sonata did achieve around the 20K mark for monthly sales, but past few months it has been nowhere close to that, and I don't expect the Sonata to get anywhere close to 20K monthly sales again for a long time.


I was talking about PURE, simple, vanilla ice cream, which remains a BIG seller. Not a variation, or a yogurt blend. Just plain simple vanilla.

Anyways, I'll use a house analogy then. Just HOW many strange, complex, or complicated house designs sell well, as in make up the majority or a large percentage of total house sales? I'll tell you, very few.

The MAJORITY of houses sold are plain/bland/unoffensive designs that appeal to most people. And just to specifically add to what you said, buying a house is more complex than buying a car.

150K miles and beyond is what I mean specifically. To see how the cars hold up at 150K, 200K, 250K miles and beyond, that is truly long-term, and Hyundai has not proven itself there.