MM Review: 2011 Hyundai Equus
02-17-11, 06:43 PM
#61
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Sorry but the LS and Equus interiors are not close. The Equus interior is something from the 1990s.
The point is Hyundai has never built luxury vehicles before therefore long term reliability is unproven and they still have a lot of work to do changing people's minds they no longer build crap.
I agree, though, that Equus reliability has yet to be proved.
Last edited by mmarshall; 02-17-11 at 06:51 PM.
02-17-11, 07:21 PM
#62
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Ugly cars are also timeless. Many ugly designs from decades ago are still ugly today.
A lot of modern supercars still have bodies that are at least partially hand-made. A lot of parts on F1 cars are still hand-made.
Anyways, I'll use a house analogy then. Just HOW many strange, complex, or complicated house designs sell well, as in make up the majority or a large percentage of total house sales? I'll tell you, very few.
The MAJORITY of houses sold are plain/bland/unoffensive designs that appeal to most people.
150K miles and beyond is what I mean specifically. To see how the cars hold up at 150K, 200K, 250K miles and beyond, that is truly long-term, and Hyundai has not proven itself there.
02-17-11, 07:36 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by TRDFantasy
I mentioned this in another thread, but I feel this must be repeated here. Good/bland/elegant styling is timeless. Well-styled cars from the 1950s and 1960s are still considered good-looking today.
02-17-11, 11:25 PM
#64
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maybe to you, but i find almost all designs don't age well. 1950s and 1960s? why those decades? and what is good/bland/elegant from those times? i'd say a mustang has been pretty timeless though. but taken even the iconic porsche 911. i think early iterations now look hokey or bland.
So you speak for "most people"?
I strongly disagree and think a lot of people would care and do care.
.
02-17-11, 11:53 PM
#65
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150K miles and beyond is what I mean specifically. To see how the cars hold up at 150K, 200K, 250K miles and beyond, that is truly long-term, and Hyundai has not proven itself there.
If we're talking about Tier 1 cars I would suggest that an extremely small number of buyers would care at all what a new car would do after 150K miles. Even 100K miles is pushing it in this segment. Being able to afford new cars at the Tier 1 level typically allows buyers to make the change when they feel like it for a multitude of reasons.
02-18-11, 12:01 AM
#66
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No, we're not talking about just luxury cars, we're talking about brands overall, and the reputations of different brands when it comes to reliability. Hyundai does not have a reputation in that regard yet for long-term reliability.
Oh and if you want to speak specifically about only luxury brands, Benz, Rolls Royce, and Lexus all built their reputations largely thanks to great reliability and durability.
Besides, luxury buyers like to have car knowing it has great reliability and durability, even if they don't need it or often change their cars. They may not ever stress a car's reliability or durability, but many luxury buyers like to know their vehicle possesses such qualities.
Oh and if you want to speak specifically about only luxury brands, Benz, Rolls Royce, and Lexus all built their reputations largely thanks to great reliability and durability.
Besides, luxury buyers like to have car knowing it has great reliability and durability, even if they don't need it or often change their cars. They may not ever stress a car's reliability or durability, but many luxury buyers like to know their vehicle possesses such qualities.
02-19-11, 12:03 PM
#67
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The reason why MOST cars have "non-complicated sheetmetal" is because intricate designs often alienate buyers, and don't appeal to the majority. Bland designs appeal more easily to the majority, and most automakers try and offer what the market wants, instead of trying to tell the market what it should buy.
It just seems like bland designs sell b/c best-sellers like the Corolla and Civic have been on the bland side.
Those models sold well b/c "style" is down on the list when mainstream shoppers are looking to buy.
Things like reliability, safety, room/comfort, etc. take precedent over more intricate sheetmetal (not saying that more intricate sheetmetal is necessarily better, b/c it can be a negative if done wrong).
Toyota execs have stated that the next gen of models for Toyota will up the style/design factor - they wouldn't be changing such a "tried and true" formula if the marketplace and their competitors weren't forcing them to.
As competition from Ford, Hyundai/Kia and GM have become competitive w/ regard to reliability, safety, room/comfort, etc. and pushed exterior sheetmetal (as well as interior) design up a notch, the deciding factor for buyers increasingly has become style/design.
The Tucson's widespread use of high-strength steel provides increased strength at a lower body weight. High-strength steel allows the four-wheel independent suspension to work optimally. At 3,203 pounds for an automatic transmission model, the Tucson is lighter than its competitors, while offering more interior room than Rogue and Escape, with body-bending rigidity 38 percent higher than the Rogue. The Tucson owes its 31 mpg estimated EPA highway rating to its weight efficient unibody architecture.
The entire body shell has been made stiffer and lighter thanks to its extensive use of ultra-high tensile strength steel, which comprises 68.9 percent of the shell compared to its predecessor's 57.3 percent. Also, the use of Tailor Welded Blanks (TWB) has been expanded on key structural members. TWB assemblies combine steels of different thickness and grades using a sophisticated laser welding and stamping process to achieve an optimal stiffness-to-weight ratio. TWBs reduce body weight while enhancing crash energy management. These safety systems are expected to earn the 2010 Tucson NHTSA's top five-star crash test rating for front and side impacts.
The entire body shell has been made stiffer and lighter thanks to its extensive use of ultra-high tensile strength steel, which comprises 68.9 percent of the shell compared to its predecessor's 57.3 percent. Also, the use of Tailor Welded Blanks (TWB) has been expanded on key structural members. TWB assemblies combine steels of different thickness and grades using a sophisticated laser welding and stamping process to achieve an optimal stiffness-to-weight ratio. TWBs reduce body weight while enhancing crash energy management. These safety systems are expected to earn the 2010 Tucson NHTSA's top five-star crash test rating for front and side impacts.
I seem to recall the Equus tying the LS460L in the C&D review w/ the pricing factor taken out.
Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Equus is just as good since it's only 1 review, but it was a bit amusing to read all the various excuses (including from you) about how the C&D review wasn't fair for this reason or that; but when the LS460 does well in other reviews, such factors are glossed over/ignored.
And while the LS460 still had done well in certain reviews, overall tho, esp. in the bigger auto publications, the LS460 has't fared as well against the S Class and 7 Series.
Apparently so, considering how many times I have had to explain this to you.
If one is going to ding the Equus on pricing, then one has to not only ding the LS400 for pricing, but the current G37 and IS as well - since they were/are considerably cheaper than their German competition.
And that's being considerably cheaper despite being sold under a luxury brand/dealer network.
Sheesh - if you can't get this fairly simple concept by now, then... (well, it does explain certain things).
The thing is even if the S-class is more expensive, people buy it b/c they feel it is WORTH the money. Mercedes has established the S-class where people feel no matter the price, it is best in class. Same with the LS, people feel no matter the cost it is best in class. The LS maybe cheaper but people buy it not based on price but on other merits, the cheaper base price is just added incentive (mind you most LSs are optioned 10-20k higher than the base MSRP.
Btw, the S Class, the options on the S Class are pricier (nice try tho).
The Equus is selling based on price first then its other capabilities. It is 55k-65k loaded which is E-class/GS money. Its even less than an E-class with tons of options. No one in their right mind can say the Equus is best in the LS/A8/S/7/Panamera/XJ etc class, not even close. It just finished dead last in a comparo with the entire competition. I am sure the next gen will be better.
It's no coincidence that sales of the LS keeps getting lower as the MSRP of each successive LS model goes up.
And let's just ignore that for the categories evaluated in the MT review, the Equus faired OK (middling) and that it finished last due to being dinged on the prestige/badge factor.
Funny how you place so much emphasis on the MT review and yet, came up w/ numerous excuses to explain away the C&D results.
Talk about bias - lol!
Which makes comments like this, really absurd.
Then you bring up the FT? What does that have to do with anything? Your thinking and pro-Hyundai shades have you desperate to make any comparison no matter how irrelevant or ridiculous. The point is Hyundai has never built luxury vehicles before therefore long term reliability is unproven and they still have a lot of work to do changing people's minds they no longer build crap.
And I brought up the FT due to actual ridiculous claims such as a poster saying that Hyundai is copying Toyota due to its lineup.
Aside from the poster getting wrong that the new Azera is an ES competitor (which it isn't), he actually had to gall to to use as "evidence" - comparisons of the Genesis sedan = GS and the Equus = LS; totally overlooking the fact that these are segments 1st established by the Germans.
I merely brought up the FT to show that it would be equally ridiculous to say that Toyota is copying Hyundai by coming up w/ a moderately priced RWD sports coupe (tho some would say that Hyundai coming out w/ the GenCoupe pushed Toyota into that direction).
Of course, due to "your impartiality" as a mod, you didn't call him out for that ridiculous claim, even when other posters agreed w/ him.
But then again, you don't exactly have a good history of impartiality.
Quite a no. of examples, but one of the more noticeable ones (aside from doing nothing about posters who write that Hyundais are "POS" or "crap"; while giving me a warning for merely stating that Lexus designs tend to be on the bland side - which evidently Toyota execs seem to agree, not to mention you having a fit anytime posters say the same thing about Toyota/Lexus on TCL) was when TRDF (if I'm not mistaken) went on about how Hyundais "sucked" due to a rust issue, when not only have other Japanese makes have had their own rust issues (Nissan), but Toyota as well.
I know this is a Lexus board, but let's just say the level of objectivity here is quite a bit less than on some other auto forums.
Oh and if you want to speak specifically about only luxury brands, Benz, Rolls Royce, and Lexus all built their reputations largely thanks to great reliability and durability.
Besides, luxury buyers like to have car knowing it has great reliability and durability, even if they don't need it or often change their cars. They may not ever stress a car's reliability or durability, but many luxury buyers like to know their vehicle possesses such qualities.
Besides, luxury buyers like to have car knowing it has great reliability and durability, even if they don't need it or often change their cars. They may not ever stress a car's reliability or durability, but many luxury buyers like to know their vehicle possesses such qualities.
And Mercedes reliability took a sharp downturn during the 1990s/early 2000s and most of their buyers didn't care (tho some did defect to Lexus for that reason) and c'mon - Range Rover (no need to say more).
Last edited by YEH; 02-19-11 at 12:42 PM.
02-19-11, 12:45 PM
#68
The LS debuted with a ridiculously low MSRP, and people bought it in droves. Lexus kept raising the MSRP several times on single generation, and people kept buying it in droves. Lexus kept raising MSRP on the LS generation after generation, and people still buy it in droves. The LS and S class are the sales leaders in this segment, with sales numbers neck to neck - nobody else comes close.
The haiyondie genocide debuted with a ridiculously low MSRP, and failed to reach its sales target. They keep lowering the price, offering bigger discounts, rock bottom lease rates, and stuffing more features and power into refreshed model, and it still sells slowly. I reckon the equis will suffer the same fate.
There's a reason why the equis is cheap - its ####-up. It is ludicrous to compare it to the LS. If you don't believe me - check the cash register
The haiyondie genocide debuted with a ridiculously low MSRP, and failed to reach its sales target. They keep lowering the price, offering bigger discounts, rock bottom lease rates, and stuffing more features and power into refreshed model, and it still sells slowly. I reckon the equis will suffer the same fate.
There's a reason why the equis is cheap - its ####-up. It is ludicrous to compare it to the LS. If you don't believe me - check the cash register
02-19-11, 01:33 PM
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^ Funny, the LS460 isn't selling even remotely close to what the LS400 sold in volume; and while the pricing of the LS has gone up quite a bit, it's still a sizeable chunk less than the S Class.
Also funny, the Genesis is outselling the GS by quite a big margin and that's even w/o the benefit of having AWD - which would tack on a 30-35% increase in sales, if not more (sales of the AWD CTS-sedan makes up nearly 50% of CTS sedan sales).
Also funny, the Genesis is outselling the GS by quite a big margin and that's even w/o the benefit of having AWD - which would tack on a 30-35% increase in sales, if not more (sales of the AWD CTS-sedan makes up nearly 50% of CTS sedan sales).
02-19-11, 02:28 PM
#70
LS460 selling volume declined not because of the lack in demand, but because there aren't as many people able to afford it at its current price point vs LS400 price point, especially in todays economy. The LS and S class are the sales volume leaders at this price point.
The genocide and equis are priced lower than cars in lower (on paper) class and they aren't generating much demand. There's a very good and simple reason for this - see above.
The genocide and equis are priced lower than cars in lower (on paper) class and they aren't generating much demand. There's a very good and simple reason for this - see above.
02-20-11, 01:36 AM
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No.
It just seems like bland designs sell b/c best-sellers like the Corolla and Civic have been on the bland side.
Those models sold well b/c "style" is down on the list when mainstream shoppers are looking to buy.
Things like reliability, safety, room/comfort, etc. take precedent over more intricate sheetmetal (not saying that more intricate sheetmetal is necessarily better, b/c it can be a negative if done wrong).
Toyota execs have stated that the next gen of models for Toyota will up the style/design factor - they wouldn't be changing such a "tried and true" formula if the marketplace and their competitors weren't forcing them to.
As competition from Ford, Hyundai/Kia and GM have become competitive w/ regard to reliability, safety, room/comfort, etc. and pushed exterior sheetmetal (as well as interior) design up a notch, the deciding factor for buyers increasingly has become style/design.
It just seems like bland designs sell b/c best-sellers like the Corolla and Civic have been on the bland side.
Those models sold well b/c "style" is down on the list when mainstream shoppers are looking to buy.
Things like reliability, safety, room/comfort, etc. take precedent over more intricate sheetmetal (not saying that more intricate sheetmetal is necessarily better, b/c it can be a negative if done wrong).
Toyota execs have stated that the next gen of models for Toyota will up the style/design factor - they wouldn't be changing such a "tried and true" formula if the marketplace and their competitors weren't forcing them to.
As competition from Ford, Hyundai/Kia and GM have become competitive w/ regard to reliability, safety, room/comfort, etc. and pushed exterior sheetmetal (as well as interior) design up a notch, the deciding factor for buyers increasingly has become style/design.
You can think whatever you want, but facts are facts. Despite all the hype with "stylish" designs from Ford, Hyundai, and GM, sales figures for their "stylish" new models have yet to noticeably improve or make a dent in sales. Despite all the hype, there is no convincing evidence yet that the market even wants highly stylized or overstyled cars. So far, the evidence strongly shows the market mostly doesn't care for such models.
More complicated sheetmetal doesn't necessarily mean having a busier design language (see Kia's design language); looking at recent Hyundai/Kia sales figures, having more interesting or more pleasing designs do help w/ regard to sales (same goes for Buick and other good GM designs such as the Equinox).
The LS hybrid in terms of base MSRP actually is more expensive than every BMW 7 model except the 760Li and the Alpina B7 (which there is no competing LS model to directly compare with).
In terms of the subject of "worth", you argument falls apart completely when we bring the LFA into discussion. Lexus has almost sold out all 500 LFA allocations worldwide, a car that in all markets with options is easily going for over 400K. In many markets the demand exceeds the number of LFAs that have been allocated.
Questioning the "worth" of Lexus models is quite laughable, especially considering the LFA is selling, and the LS hybrid is selling, the two MOST expensive Lexus models. Not to mention, there is the LX570, which starts at basically 80K MSRP, and easily goes up from there with options. That consistently sells at about 200 units or more monthly in the US alone.
Yes, let's just totally ignore that the LS400 initially sold primarily on its ridiculously low MSRP of $35K.
It's no coincidence that sales of the LS keeps getting lower as the MSRP of each successive LS model goes up.
And let's just ignore that for the categories evaluated in the MT review, the Equus faired OK (middling) and that it finished last due to being dinged on the prestige/badge factor.
Funny how you place so much emphasis on the MT review and yet, came up w/ numerous excuses to explain away the C&D results.
Talk about bias - lol!
Which makes comments like this, really absurd.
It's no coincidence that sales of the LS keeps getting lower as the MSRP of each successive LS model goes up.
And let's just ignore that for the categories evaluated in the MT review, the Equus faired OK (middling) and that it finished last due to being dinged on the prestige/badge factor.
Funny how you place so much emphasis on the MT review and yet, came up w/ numerous excuses to explain away the C&D results.
Talk about bias - lol!
Which makes comments like this, really absurd.
Uhh, Hyundai sold the 1st gen Equus for about a decade (granted, it was a JV w/ Mitsu).
And I brought up the FT due to actual ridiculous claims such as a poster saying that Hyundai is copying Toyota due to its lineup.
Aside from the poster getting wrong that the new Azera is an ES competitor (which it isn't), he actually had to gall to to use as "evidence" - comparisons of the Genesis sedan = GS and the Equus = LS; totally overlooking the fact that these are segments 1st established by the Germans.
I merely brought up the FT to show that it would be equally ridiculous to say that Toyota is copying Hyundai by coming up w/ a moderately priced RWD sports coupe (tho some would say that Hyundai coming out w/ the GenCoupe pushed Toyota into that direction).
Of course, due to "your impartiality" as a mod, you didn't call him out for that ridiculous claim, even when other posters agreed w/ him.
But then again, you don't exactly have a good history of impartiality.
Quite a no. of examples, but one of the more noticeable ones (aside from doing nothing about posters who write that Hyundais are "POS" or "crap"; while giving me a warning for merely stating that Lexus designs tend to be on the bland side - which evidently Toyota execs seem to agree, not to mention you having a fit anytime posters say the same thing about Toyota/Lexus on TCL) was when TRDF (if I'm not mistaken) went on about how Hyundais "sucked" due to a rust issue, when not only have other Japanese makes have had their own rust issues (Nissan), but Toyota as well.
I know this is a Lexus board, but let's just say the level of objectivity here is quite a bit less than on some other auto forums.
And I brought up the FT due to actual ridiculous claims such as a poster saying that Hyundai is copying Toyota due to its lineup.
Aside from the poster getting wrong that the new Azera is an ES competitor (which it isn't), he actually had to gall to to use as "evidence" - comparisons of the Genesis sedan = GS and the Equus = LS; totally overlooking the fact that these are segments 1st established by the Germans.
I merely brought up the FT to show that it would be equally ridiculous to say that Toyota is copying Hyundai by coming up w/ a moderately priced RWD sports coupe (tho some would say that Hyundai coming out w/ the GenCoupe pushed Toyota into that direction).
Of course, due to "your impartiality" as a mod, you didn't call him out for that ridiculous claim, even when other posters agreed w/ him.
But then again, you don't exactly have a good history of impartiality.
Quite a no. of examples, but one of the more noticeable ones (aside from doing nothing about posters who write that Hyundais are "POS" or "crap"; while giving me a warning for merely stating that Lexus designs tend to be on the bland side - which evidently Toyota execs seem to agree, not to mention you having a fit anytime posters say the same thing about Toyota/Lexus on TCL) was when TRDF (if I'm not mistaken) went on about how Hyundais "sucked" due to a rust issue, when not only have other Japanese makes have had their own rust issues (Nissan), but Toyota as well.
I know this is a Lexus board, but let's just say the level of objectivity here is quite a bit less than on some other auto forums.
Toyota has decades of experience with RWD coupes. It is ridiculous to say they are following Hyundai.
Also, please show me that Toyota has the SAME LEVEL of rust problems in areas such as the sub-frames, frames, control arms, and suspension members as Hyundai.
Also with Benz, I was referring to how their reputation ORIGINALLY got established. I was not talking about more modern problems that Benz has had. The quality problems of Benz did not affect their sales that much because of the TREMENDOUS brand history and worldwide recognition Benz cars have had for over 100 years.
^ Funny, the LS460 isn't selling even remotely close to what the LS400 sold in volume; and while the pricing of the LS has gone up quite a bit, it's still a sizeable chunk less than the S Class.
Also funny, the Genesis is outselling the GS by quite a big margin and that's even w/o the benefit of having AWD - which would tack on a 30-35% increase in sales, if not more (sales of the AWD CTS-sedan makes up nearly 50% of CTS sedan sales).
Also funny, the Genesis is outselling the GS by quite a big margin and that's even w/o the benefit of having AWD - which would tack on a 30-35% increase in sales, if not more (sales of the AWD CTS-sedan makes up nearly 50% of CTS sedan sales).
Look at THE MARKET OVERALL. If you're going to myopically single out the LS, then it's only fair to talk about the S-Class and 7 as well. They are selling only at a fraction of early late 80s/early 90s US sales levels.
However if you look WORLDWIDE, Lexus LS sales have ARE VERY GOOD. In fact, current generation worldwide LS sales are FAR better than worldwide sales of the original LS400.
Sorry, your argument completely falls apart.
Also for the last time, do not compare the Genesis sedan with the GS. They exist and compete in two different market classes. They are not in the same class.
Last edited by TRDFantasy; 02-20-11 at 01:40 AM.
02-20-11, 06:00 PM
#72
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No.
It just seems like bland designs sell b/c best-sellers like the Corolla and Civic have been on the bland side.
Hyundai Elantra has been bland until 2011 and it didn't sell well. Bland doesn't automatically mean it will sell. The RL is proof of this. Can you stop bringing up other cars and keep it on the Equus?
Those models sold well b/c "style" is down on the list when mainstream shoppers are looking to buy.
To you.
Things like reliability, safety, room/comfort, etc. take precedent over more intricate sheetmetal (not saying that more intricate sheetmetal is necessarily better, b/c it can be a negative if done wrong).
To you.
Toyota execs have stated that the next gen of models for Toyota will up the style/design factor - they wouldn't be changing such a "tried and true" formula if the marketplace and their competitors weren't forcing them to.
What this have to do with the Equus?
As competition from Ford, Hyundai/Kia and GM have become competitive w/ regard to reliability, safety, room/comfort, etc. and pushed exterior sheetmetal (as well as interior) design up a notch, the deciding factor for buyers increasingly has become style/design.
What does this have to do with the Equus?
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/03/2...es-2009-debut/
More complicated sheetmetal doesn't necessarily mean having a busier design language (see Kia's design language); looking at recent Hyundai/Kia sales figures, having more interesting or more pleasing designs do help w/ regard to sales (same goes for Buick and other good GM designs such as the Equinox).
To you. What on earth does a entry level 20k SUV have to do with this topic? No one uses the Tuscan as some design standard.
These days the diff. isn't that big (heck, AutoBild in Germany has Hyundai rated higher than Toyota) and both JD Power and CR have had Hyundai reliability above the industry avg. for close to a decade.
What does this have to do with the Equus. Equus is not sold in Europe, LS is sold in Europe.
What rhetoric?
I seem to recall the Equus tying the LS460L in the C&D review w/ the pricing factor taken out.
Good for C/D. The Equus won on price, the LS was over $30,000 more expensive, where it got docked 10 points for it. You clearly read my review the Equus to me is s till a good car.
Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Equus is just as good since it's only 1 review, but it was a bit amusing to read all the various excuses (including from you) about how the C&D review wasn't fair for this reason or that; but when the LS460 does well in other reviews, such factors are glossed over/ignored.
Your personal tirade is quite amusing and old. You equate other peoples opinions as excuses and your opinions as fact. It is quite delusional that someone that doesn't even own a Hyundai or a Lexus or any luxury car is telling everyone about luxury.
And while the LS460 still had done well in certain reviews, overall tho, esp. in the bigger auto publications, the LS460 has't fared as well against the S Class and 7 Series.
To you.
Uhh, aside from the rear passenger compartment (which is comparable), I've been more than critical of the Equus' dash (both design and the materials used) - so it's not like you are bringing up anything new.
Your point is?
Do yoy really have this much of a problem w/ pretty simple LOGIC?
You don't own a Hyundai or a Lexus or a luxury car so your condescending tone is amusing. Your trolling in every Hyundai thread is old, redundant and no one is buying it here.
Apparently so, considering how many times I have had to explain this to you.
Who do you think you are, Jesus? You have no credibility, you troll Hyundai threads over and over and try to come off as some superior person. Simply, you are a forum jester.
If one is going to ding the Equus on pricing, then one has to not only ding the LS400 for pricing, but the current G37 and IS as well - since they were/are considerably cheaper than their German competition.
You are forever going back to 1989 trying to bring up the LS and other cars with no clue about history or the market. Your tirade will do anything to try to embarrass Lexus which includes spinning anything you deem necessary. When Hyundai makes a separate luxury arm, then you can make a better comparison.
And that's being considerably cheaper despite being sold under a luxury brand/dealer network.
Just stop.
Sheesh - if you can't get this fairly simple concept by now, then... (well, it does explain certain things).
What does it explain? Do tell? Please tell us all how superior you are.
If it was "worth it", buyers would pay the same prices and the LS460 would be priced more in line w/ the S Class.
They do
Not even LS is some 65k base model. You are so dismissive of the LS and since you know NOTHING about the luxury market you equate a lower base starting price as the sole reason someone buys a cheaper car. Lexus is not Hyundai. Hyundai has to be cheaper to sell. Lexus is sometimes cheaper and its icing on the cake the car is viewed as on par or superior.
Btw, the S Class, the options on the S Class are pricier (nice try tho).
Nice try? No one is trying anything, not sure why we are even listening to your trolling rants again.
Yes, let's just totally ignore that the LS400 initially sold primarily on its ridiculously low MSRP of $35K.
Why are you constantly going back to 1989? Is your name Marty? Let me explain this to you since you are inept at this point, THE ORIGINAL LS IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE GREATEST AUTOMOBILES OF ALL TIME. If you read any review at the time they raved over THE CAR then concluded the cheaper price was just icing on the cake.
The LS was as good or a better car and was cheaper. Hyundai is cheaper. Period. End of story. The Equus is nothing like the LS in 1989, it is not class leading in any way OUTSIDE OF PRICE. Contrarily the LS WAS SEEN AS CLASS LEADING ALMOST IN EVERY WAY and was cheaper. GIANT difference in execution.
You FAIL to understand that.
It's no coincidence that sales of the LS keeps getting lower as the MSRP of each successive LS model goes up.
Show us LS sales to back up your argument. The LS is now a 65k-130k vehicle, the Equus is 55k-65k. The LS sold over 25,000 units in 2007, MORE THAN THE GENESIS SEDAN which is a 30k-45k car. You don't know what you are taking about. Period.
And let's just ignore that for the categories evaluated in the MT review, the Equus faired OK (middling) and that it finished last due to being dinged on the prestige/badge factor.
Wait a minute here. So you accuse others of making excuses but you can make excuses for the Equus.
Funny how you place so much emphasis on the MT review and yet, came up w/ numerous excuses to explain away the C&D results.
Talk about bias - lol!
You place that much emphasis on what I say. If you actually read instead of skimmed posts to argue you would see I had no issue with the C&D review.
Which makes comments like this, really absurd.
Yawn
Uhh, Hyundai sold the 1st gen Equus for about a decade (granted, it was a JV w/ Mitsu).
No one cares.
And I brought up the FT due to actual ridiculous claims such as a poster saying that Hyundai is copying Toyota due to its lineup.
Stop it. Who are you Hyundai Jesus?
Aside from the poster getting wrong that the new Azera is an ES competitor (which it isn't), he actually had to gall to to use as "evidence" - comparisons of the Genesis sedan = GS and the Equus = LS; totally overlooking the fact that these are segments 1st established by the Germans.
Stop, you don't know much anything outside of Hyundai is the greatest. Who are you to correct people like your word is THE END ALL? lol. Delusional Hyundai fan is delusional
I merely brought up the FT to show that it would be equally ridiculous to say that Toyota is copying Hyundai by coming up w/ a moderately priced RWD sports coupe (tho some would say that Hyundai coming out w/ the GenCoupe pushed Toyota into that direction).
Of course, due to "your impartiality" as a mod, you didn't call him out for that ridiculous claim, even when other posters agreed w/ him.
Okay now you are stepping on thin ice b/c now you are jumping even further away from the topic. If you have a problem with my moderating report it. FYI mods don't read every single post and sentence on their respective forums.
But then again, you don't exactly have a good history of impartiality.
Compared to you have no history. Nothing, non-existent.
Quite a no. of examples, but one of the more noticeable ones (aside from doing nothing about posters who write that Hyundais are "POS" or "crap"; while giving me a warning for merely stating that Lexus designs tend to be on the bland side - which evidently Toyota execs seem to agree, not to mention you having a fit anytime posters say the same thing about Toyota/Lexus on TCL) was when TRDF (if I'm not mistaken) went on about how Hyundais "sucked" due to a rust issue, when not only have other Japanese makes have had their own rust issues (Nissan), but Toyota as well.
Just stop
I know this is a Lexus board, but let's just say the level of objectivity here is quite a bit less than on some other auto forums.
To you.
Rolls reliability? Are you kidding me? lol
Stop
And Mercedes reliability took a sharp downturn during the 1990s/early 2000s and most of their buyers didn't care (tho some did defect to Lexus for that reason) and c'mon - Range Rover (no need to say more).
Just stop
It just seems like bland designs sell b/c best-sellers like the Corolla and Civic have been on the bland side.
Hyundai Elantra has been bland until 2011 and it didn't sell well. Bland doesn't automatically mean it will sell. The RL is proof of this. Can you stop bringing up other cars and keep it on the Equus?
Those models sold well b/c "style" is down on the list when mainstream shoppers are looking to buy.
To you.
Things like reliability, safety, room/comfort, etc. take precedent over more intricate sheetmetal (not saying that more intricate sheetmetal is necessarily better, b/c it can be a negative if done wrong).
To you.
Toyota execs have stated that the next gen of models for Toyota will up the style/design factor - they wouldn't be changing such a "tried and true" formula if the marketplace and their competitors weren't forcing them to.
What this have to do with the Equus?
As competition from Ford, Hyundai/Kia and GM have become competitive w/ regard to reliability, safety, room/comfort, etc. and pushed exterior sheetmetal (as well as interior) design up a notch, the deciding factor for buyers increasingly has become style/design.
What does this have to do with the Equus?
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/03/2...es-2009-debut/
More complicated sheetmetal doesn't necessarily mean having a busier design language (see Kia's design language); looking at recent Hyundai/Kia sales figures, having more interesting or more pleasing designs do help w/ regard to sales (same goes for Buick and other good GM designs such as the Equinox).
To you. What on earth does a entry level 20k SUV have to do with this topic? No one uses the Tuscan as some design standard.
These days the diff. isn't that big (heck, AutoBild in Germany has Hyundai rated higher than Toyota) and both JD Power and CR have had Hyundai reliability above the industry avg. for close to a decade.
What does this have to do with the Equus. Equus is not sold in Europe, LS is sold in Europe.
What rhetoric?
I seem to recall the Equus tying the LS460L in the C&D review w/ the pricing factor taken out.
Good for C/D. The Equus won on price, the LS was over $30,000 more expensive, where it got docked 10 points for it. You clearly read my review the Equus to me is s till a good car.
Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the Equus is just as good since it's only 1 review, but it was a bit amusing to read all the various excuses (including from you) about how the C&D review wasn't fair for this reason or that; but when the LS460 does well in other reviews, such factors are glossed over/ignored.
Your personal tirade is quite amusing and old. You equate other peoples opinions as excuses and your opinions as fact. It is quite delusional that someone that doesn't even own a Hyundai or a Lexus or any luxury car is telling everyone about luxury.
And while the LS460 still had done well in certain reviews, overall tho, esp. in the bigger auto publications, the LS460 has't fared as well against the S Class and 7 Series.
To you.
Uhh, aside from the rear passenger compartment (which is comparable), I've been more than critical of the Equus' dash (both design and the materials used) - so it's not like you are bringing up anything new.
Your point is?
Do yoy really have this much of a problem w/ pretty simple LOGIC?
You don't own a Hyundai or a Lexus or a luxury car so your condescending tone is amusing. Your trolling in every Hyundai thread is old, redundant and no one is buying it here.
Apparently so, considering how many times I have had to explain this to you.
Who do you think you are, Jesus? You have no credibility, you troll Hyundai threads over and over and try to come off as some superior person. Simply, you are a forum jester.
If one is going to ding the Equus on pricing, then one has to not only ding the LS400 for pricing, but the current G37 and IS as well - since they were/are considerably cheaper than their German competition.
You are forever going back to 1989 trying to bring up the LS and other cars with no clue about history or the market. Your tirade will do anything to try to embarrass Lexus which includes spinning anything you deem necessary. When Hyundai makes a separate luxury arm, then you can make a better comparison.
And that's being considerably cheaper despite being sold under a luxury brand/dealer network.
Just stop.
Sheesh - if you can't get this fairly simple concept by now, then... (well, it does explain certain things).
What does it explain? Do tell? Please tell us all how superior you are.
If it was "worth it", buyers would pay the same prices and the LS460 would be priced more in line w/ the S Class.
They do
Not even LS is some 65k base model. You are so dismissive of the LS and since you know NOTHING about the luxury market you equate a lower base starting price as the sole reason someone buys a cheaper car. Lexus is not Hyundai. Hyundai has to be cheaper to sell. Lexus is sometimes cheaper and its icing on the cake the car is viewed as on par or superior. Btw, the S Class, the options on the S Class are pricier (nice try tho).
Nice try? No one is trying anything, not sure why we are even listening to your trolling rants again.
Yes, let's just totally ignore that the LS400 initially sold primarily on its ridiculously low MSRP of $35K.
Why are you constantly going back to 1989? Is your name Marty? Let me explain this to you since you are inept at this point, THE ORIGINAL LS IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE GREATEST AUTOMOBILES OF ALL TIME. If you read any review at the time they raved over THE CAR then concluded the cheaper price was just icing on the cake.
The LS was as good or a better car and was cheaper. Hyundai is cheaper. Period. End of story. The Equus is nothing like the LS in 1989, it is not class leading in any way OUTSIDE OF PRICE. Contrarily the LS WAS SEEN AS CLASS LEADING ALMOST IN EVERY WAY and was cheaper. GIANT difference in execution.
You FAIL to understand that.
It's no coincidence that sales of the LS keeps getting lower as the MSRP of each successive LS model goes up.
Show us LS sales to back up your argument. The LS is now a 65k-130k vehicle, the Equus is 55k-65k. The LS sold over 25,000 units in 2007, MORE THAN THE GENESIS SEDAN which is a 30k-45k car. You don't know what you are taking about. Period.
And let's just ignore that for the categories evaluated in the MT review, the Equus faired OK (middling) and that it finished last due to being dinged on the prestige/badge factor.
Wait a minute here. So you accuse others of making excuses but you can make excuses for the Equus.
Funny how you place so much emphasis on the MT review and yet, came up w/ numerous excuses to explain away the C&D results.
Talk about bias - lol!
You place that much emphasis on what I say. If you actually read instead of skimmed posts to argue you would see I had no issue with the C&D review.
Which makes comments like this, really absurd.
Yawn
Uhh, Hyundai sold the 1st gen Equus for about a decade (granted, it was a JV w/ Mitsu).
No one cares.
And I brought up the FT due to actual ridiculous claims such as a poster saying that Hyundai is copying Toyota due to its lineup.
Stop it. Who are you Hyundai Jesus?
Aside from the poster getting wrong that the new Azera is an ES competitor (which it isn't), he actually had to gall to to use as "evidence" - comparisons of the Genesis sedan = GS and the Equus = LS; totally overlooking the fact that these are segments 1st established by the Germans.
Stop, you don't know much anything outside of Hyundai is the greatest. Who are you to correct people like your word is THE END ALL? lol. Delusional Hyundai fan is delusional
I merely brought up the FT to show that it would be equally ridiculous to say that Toyota is copying Hyundai by coming up w/ a moderately priced RWD sports coupe (tho some would say that Hyundai coming out w/ the GenCoupe pushed Toyota into that direction).
Of course, due to "your impartiality" as a mod, you didn't call him out for that ridiculous claim, even when other posters agreed w/ him.
Okay now you are stepping on thin ice b/c now you are jumping even further away from the topic. If you have a problem with my moderating report it. FYI mods don't read every single post and sentence on their respective forums.
But then again, you don't exactly have a good history of impartiality.
Compared to you have no history. Nothing, non-existent.
Quite a no. of examples, but one of the more noticeable ones (aside from doing nothing about posters who write that Hyundais are "POS" or "crap"; while giving me a warning for merely stating that Lexus designs tend to be on the bland side - which evidently Toyota execs seem to agree, not to mention you having a fit anytime posters say the same thing about Toyota/Lexus on TCL) was when TRDF (if I'm not mistaken) went on about how Hyundais "sucked" due to a rust issue, when not only have other Japanese makes have had their own rust issues (Nissan), but Toyota as well.
Just stop
I know this is a Lexus board, but let's just say the level of objectivity here is quite a bit less than on some other auto forums.
To you.
Rolls reliability? Are you kidding me? lol
Stop
And Mercedes reliability took a sharp downturn during the 1990s/early 2000s and most of their buyers didn't care (tho some did defect to Lexus for that reason) and c'mon - Range Rover (no need to say more).
Just stop
Please just stop posting. This is not the place to login to bump Hyundai only threads and to pick apart posts you don't agree with while ignoring any complimentary comments.
02-22-11, 09:44 PM
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Chop off $7-8K off the price of the GS and sell it as a Toyota and do you think it'll do any better than it is doing now?
Considering that the GS is still a good bit cheaper than a comparably equipped E Class, shouldn't it be doing a lot better?
And I seem to recall you bumping a Hyundai thread that was like 2 months old (not surprisingly, a thread about a Hyundai recall).
And I'm hardly ignoring your complimentary comments (btw, I have said many a complimentary thing about the LS400); just picking apart your other points thats all.
Last edited by YEH; 02-22-11 at 09:49 PM.
02-22-11, 10:55 PM
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Toyota's mainstream models have gradually become more stylish over the past few generations. Yes Toyota did say future models would have more styling, but it is going to be a GRADUAL change, not a RADICAL change that Hyundai has been doing. RADICAL change alienates new buyers and current owners/customers.
Radical change seems to have done Hyundai some good w/ regard to sales.
The Honda CR-V is quite the change from the previous gen and the CR-V has only gained in sales; the current Accord is quite the change from the previous Accord and it's doing fine.
The Mercedes E Class is quite the step away from its predecessor and it's become a huge sale hit for Mercedes; pretty much all of the Jaguar models, but in particular, the XJ, are quite diff. in design from the designs that Jag stuck w/ for the past 2-3 decades.
You can think whatever you want, but facts are facts. Despite all the hype with "stylish" designs from Ford, Hyundai, and GM, sales figures for their "stylish" new models have yet to noticeably improve or make a dent in sales. Despite all the hype, there is no convincing evidence yet that the market even wants highly stylized or overstyled cars. So far, the evidence strongly shows the market mostly doesn't care for such models.
And sales of the Cruze are picking up steam, selling over 13.5K units in Jan. - those are the FACTS.
I have looked at Hyundai/Kia sales figures, and for the most part I don't see a big indication that more "interesting designs" have led to increased sales figures. Over the past 5-6 years, Hyundai/Kia have added several new models to their lineups which have helped a lot in boosting sales. For the most part, existing models over the past few years have not increased sales tremendously relative to the competition.
For instance, Hyundai sold nearly 197k Sonatas in 2010; in 2009 they sold 120k.
In 2010, Kia sold over 108k Sorentos; in 2009, they sold about 24.5K.
And in no small part, the reason why the Soul beats the other "mini-cubes" in sales (by far) is due to its styling.
You're arbitrarily changing metrics? How long has Autobild had Hyundai above Toyota? Only this year or last year? Over the past 10 years, how many times has Hyundai been rated above Toyota in Autobild? With regards to CR and JD Power, we're not talking about the industry average. In the past 10 years, how many times has Hyundai been rated above Toyota in JD Power's 3-year dependability study? How many times has Hyundai been rated overall above Toyota in CR in long-term reliability?
And it's not Lexus isn't offering some nice discounts right now. One person who just bought an Equus tried to get his father to buy one as well, but the father wanted/needed AWD and opted for an AWD LS.
That choice was made a lot easier when he got the LS460 AWD for $10K under sticker.
Don't think the Germans have to do that considering the Chinese are snapping up every higher end German sedan that they get their hands on.
And speaking of no direct comparisons, neither the 7 or S have a true hybrid version (just a mild hybrid).
In terms of the subject of "worth", you argument falls apart completely when we bring the LFA into discussion. Lexus has almost sold out all 500 LFA allocations worldwide, a car that in all markets with options is easily going for over 400K. In many markets the demand exceeds the number of LFAs that have been allocated.
Questioning the "worth" of Lexus models is quite laughable, especially considering the LFA is selling, and the LS hybrid is selling, the two MOST expensive Lexus models. Not to mention, there is the LX570, which starts at basically 80K MSRP, and easily goes up from there with options. That consistently sells at about 200 units or more monthly in the US alone.
As the price of the LS creeped up, sales started to drop.
I'm not saying that Toyota is copying Hyundai - but rather that claiming Hyundai is copying Toyota (based on long-established segments) is as ridiculous as claiming Toyota is copying Hyundai on the GenCoupe example.
Uhh, how 'bout the recalls on the Tundra and Tacoma.
And hey, let's not forget about the oil sludge problems on a no. of both Toyota and Lexus models (so it's hardly something to get snooty about).
Please learn about the history of Rolls-Royce before making further comments. Rolls-Royce ORIGINALLY built their reputation on quality and reliability, with their first model, the Silver Ghost. The Silver Ghost was TREMENDOUSLY more reliable than most other cars on the road at the time, which helped establish the reputation of Rolls Royce.
Also with Benz, I was referring to how their reputation ORIGINALLY got established. I was not talking about more modern problems that Benz has had. The quality problems of Benz did not affect their sales that much because of the TREMENDOUS brand history and worldwide recognition Benz cars have had for over 100 years.
Also with Benz, I was referring to how their reputation ORIGINALLY got established. I was not talking about more modern problems that Benz has had. The quality problems of Benz did not affect their sales that much because of the TREMENDOUS brand history and worldwide recognition Benz cars have had for over 100 years.
Yeah, like people nowadays have any inkling of that.
British auto industry became known for shoddy reliability - which not only killed the mainstream brands, but resulted in all the British luxury brands being taken over by foreign automakers.
And oh, GM (Cadillac, in particular) was once world reknowned for its quality and yet it didn't help it much when quality went down the crapper.
Strawman argument. Is the S-class *in the US* currently selling at the same volume as the early 90s S-Class? What about the current 7 Series compared to the early 90s 7 Series?
Look at THE MARKET OVERALL. If you're going to myopically single out the LS, then it's only fair to talk about the S-Class and 7 as well. They are selling only at a fraction of early late 80s/early 90s US sales levels.
Sorry, your argument completely falls apart.
Look at THE MARKET OVERALL. If you're going to myopically single out the LS, then it's only fair to talk about the S-Class and 7 as well. They are selling only at a fraction of early late 80s/early 90s US sales levels.
Sorry, your argument completely falls apart.
If the LS is selling at a lower volume than it did previously and the S Class is selling at a lower volume than it did as well, then the LS should still outsell the S Class (esp. due to its lower price comparably equipped) as it once did.
OK, I'll be sure to just compare the Genesis to the older Toyota Aristo.
02-23-11, 04:04 AM
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For shame... Feels like I'm on a Scion forum now not ClubLexus. When will the bickering stop?