Just to play devil's advocate: what have we seen in the last few years? I would argue exactly that. We have Ford which has made great strides in quality, image, hybrid technology, infotainment, and features. We have Hyundai which has made great strides in quality, image, hybrid technology, style, and value.

and then we have toyota. Apart from the Prius, not much achievement. Im not saying that they havent achieved because they dont want to overtake their own luxury division, but it is a nice coincidence. There is a balance that they probably have to keep adjusting to make Lexus stand out.

on the nav: what's so special about remote touch if the screen layout is the exact same? I think the newest nav system on the Lexus models is mediocre at best, and Lexus is the one that needs to step it up. Just look at the competition.

Audi:

 

I find those Audi screens quite confusing, hopefully TMC navs never will look like that.

I dont find it ridiculous that you want better navigation, it is just that you want Toyotas to be bad, and Lexus one to be good :-)

oh yeah, that cheapo Verso-S will have next generation nav which will tell you what the eco-route is as well :-)

 

As a Lexus owner if they dumb down Toyota to separate the two better and the Toyota's are still selling I'm all for it. If they elevate Toyota they better elevate Lexus.

Toyota/Lexus has by far done the best job differentiating the two and I hope this continues. If they elevate the next Camry I hope the ES jumps another level.

 

The causes leading Toyota to make lesser cars in the past few years may NOT be so that they can increase the difference between the Toyota and Lexus brands, but because Toyota has been trying to keep costs -- and therefore prices -- down on Toyota-branded vehicles.

As a premium brand, Lexus is not much affected by high costs leading to higher selling prices. But as a mainline brand, Toyota is greatly affected by high selling prices. So we see obvious evidence of cost cutting: cheap interior materials; removal of the Optitron electroluminescent gauges from all except the high-trim levels; an old-technology 4-speed automatic transmission on the Corolla hooked up to a modern engine; a simple, non-independent rear suspension on the Corolla; maintaining rear drum brakes on the Corolla.

So the Toyota brand is balancing on a thread: cut costs to maintain competitive selling prices but hope that the cut in quality and cut in features does not make the cars non-competitive against the other mainline brands, especially Ford, Hyundai and Kia.

 

So when reviews about Toyota having lower quality interiors compared to the competition, the board gets on Toyota for lowering their quality

But when Toyota makes their interior better, they get on them because they are becoming too good, and it makes their Lexus look less special, this makes zero sense.

 

^^ that is because what Toyota needs to do is vastly improve Lexus, thereby increasing the margin between Toyota/Lexus vehicles. Then they can improve Toyota models more and the balance remains equal. lol

 

lol, I don't think the latter is happening yet we just hope the quality does go up for Lexus if it goes up for Toyota. Again I've driven a Accord/TSX/TL and Maxima/G35 and the interiors are too close and it doesn't make the luxury brand feel special.

 

No, not always. When the Lexus LS debuted, it had a 4.0L V8, which was unique only to the LS at the time. No other Toyota models used that engine except the Celsior and later Soarer (In North America, the Lexus SC). When the LS debuted, the Toyota Cressida was still sold in North America, and that car used a totally different engine despite being in a similar class to the Lexus LS.

The current 3rd-gen Lexus RX actually has a differently-tuned 3.5L V6 compared to any other Toyota or Lexus models.

Only some entry-level Lexus models share engine with Toyota models. The Lexus IS shares no engines with any North American Toyota models, and with only a few higher-end Japanese Toyota models. Same thing applies with the Lexus GS. The Lexus LS currently shares no engines with any Toyota models. The Lexus GX and LX do share engines with the Toyota Tundra, but that's about it. They are truck motors though after all. Then we have the IS F and LFA, which use unique engines not shared with any other Toyota models, and in the case of the IS F, it uses a modified variant of the LS hybrid's 5.0L V8.

Some VW and Audi models have shared similar powertrains as well.

The main point you have to realize is that there is actually LESS engine sharing now between Lexus and Toyota than there was in the 90s. The Soarer and Celsior Toyota models no longer exist now. I don't see why you would be criticizing this then, since Lexus has been improving in terms of powertrain differentiation compared to Toyota.

Nav system, fair enough, the similarities are there. Again, Audi and VW used similar nav systems until recently.

So now you're complaining about certain select features and seat levers being shared between brands?

If you want exclusivity, buy an LFA. It shares almost zero parts with any other Lexus or Toyota models. Mercedes parts are still shared with Chrysler models, and VW and Audi models share parts. Are you criticizing Mercedes here or Audi in this case at all? I haven't seen any criticism of those brands. Do you they get a free pass from this criticism?

Let's not assume, shall we? Lexus already differentiates from Toyota with Remote Touch. Lexus Enform shares some features with Toyota Safety Connect, but also offers a few unique Lexus-only features. More future Lexus models will likely have Remote Touch, or who knows what else.

We don't know what future Lexus models will have in terms of infotainment systems, because the next-gen Lexus models have not come out yet. Let's have some patience before jumping to conclusions.

Also it must be mentioned the TONS of customization options offer for Lexus models in Japan, which we currently don't get in North America. I think we will likely see that soon for Lexus in North America. The incredible customization options on the LFA as well is a sign of things to come for future Lexus models I believe.

Very strongly disagree. The market DOES NOT lie. The Ford F-Series, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord all continue to be some of the TOP selling vehicles in North America. What do they all have in common? They are all inoffensive, simple designs that appeal to a broad number of people. VW is a top selling brand in Europe. Most VWs are inoffensive, simple or "plain" designs that broadly appeal to a lot of people.

Regardless of what you, I, or anyone else thinks, "vanilla" is still what MOST PEOPLE want, and the market trends worldwide prove this.

You don't know Toyota very well as a company then if you feel that is what they will be going for. Akio Toyoda has really changed things at the company, and brought it back to its roots. The LFA has also become a unifying and rallying product within Toyota, giving a great sense of pride to Toyota employees, and being a peak example of how a product could be done and should be done, no matter if it's a supercar or an economy car.

Comments like these really and truly baffle me

So you're a Lexus owner, yet you have all these criticisms of Lexus. If you feel that there are no compelling reasons to own a Lexus, WHY did you BUY a Lexus RX in the first place? Why didn't you just buy yourself a Highlander? Or are you merely criticizing for the sake of criticizing?

Now you mention you felt the RX was "worth it", so when then make these criticisms? You mention that they might apply "to some", well why worry so much about what others might think?

Lexus remained the top-selling luxury brand in North America last year, so other people voted with their wallets and bought more Lexus models than BMW or Mercedes models. Lots of people last year CLEARLY thought that Lexus was "worth it", because they all bought Lexus models.

Yes for those models, RT *IS* a difference. Expect to see RT on the nex-gen LS and next-gen GS. Changes don't happen overnight. RT will soon spread to the majority of the Lexus lineup. I would expect the next-gen ES to use RT as well.

Hyundai has made "great strides" in hybrid technology? Don't make me laugh. What strides? Please explain and show specific details. Hyundai has made almost zero strides in hybrid technology. Ford has made more strides than Hyundai with hybrid technology. Hyundai has made "great" strides in quality? Maybe in initial quality. In terms of long-term quality, that remains to be seen, same with Ford to a lesser extent.

Apart from the Prius? The Prius has been a HUGE achievement for Toyota over the past few years, so much so that the Prius is becoming a sub-brand a variety of different Prius vehicles are coming. When most people think "hybrid", they think Prius.

I would strongly argue Toyota has improved in terms of style and technology. Look at any owner surveys over the last few years that look at style, technology, value. Toyota has great in many of those surveys.

Yes Toyota has has had some serious problems over the past few years, but many of those problems have been corrected, or are continuing to be corrected under the leadership of Akio Toyoda. Many of those problems were caused by poor management decisions by Akio Toyoda's predecessors, problems which Toyota has had to deal with in terms of consequences.

This may have been true for Toyota models over the past few years, but does not apply to future Toyota models.

Over the last several years, Toyota has spent a TON of money on R&D; the fruits of all that time, money and labor will be seen with next-generation Toyota and Lexus models over the next few years.

Akio Toyoda has specifically mandated company-wide that quality is the #1 priority, not cost-cutting. Cost-cutting now comes only after quality and customer service. One of Toyota's senior executives has publically admitted Toyota will take a profit hit in over the next few years due to this strong focus on quality. Also especially due to the US government witch hunt that happened against Toyota, it enraged Toyota, but has also renewed Toyota's focus and commitment. Toyota is going to improve quality to such a level that if US politicians or lawyers attempt to go after Toyota again, they won't have anything to stand on at all.

A lot of Toyota's cost-cutting now revolves around innovation, new ideas, and clever techniques, rather than cutting costs by cutting quality.

For example, Toyota opened its 1st new plant in Japan in almost two decades, in an area of Japan where labor costs are lower, which makes the plant more competitive cost-wise. The plant also has a variety of innovations, one of which being that cars run in parallel in several "lanes" on the assembly line, instead of one by one. This saves costs and allows for a smaller plant, all without affecting quality.

 

http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/m...on-192895.aspx

This means that a lot more Toyota models will be using the 6-speed transmissions. I think it's safe to say that means the end of the 4-speed and 5-speed transmissions that some Toyota models are still using.

 

i disagree. toyota brand is far and away the majority of toyota corp's sales, and they have to do whatever they have to do to be competitive and win. quality, value, innovation, style (even if very 'safe' - if that's what sells, so be it), etc. they have to meet or beat overall what honda, ford, gm, hyundai, mazda, and others are doing.

lexus r&d/marketing on the other hand will have to do what it needs to do to remain a good step above, but coordinate with toyota r&d to share parts and save cost wherever possible.

i think a lot of your comments have focused on electronics, but that's not everything. even if toyota and lexus vehicles end up with the exact same software, the lexus could use a higher quality / resolution screen, better graphics, even things like better voices, to all exude a higher level, more luxurious experience.

but there's so many other ways to differentiate. of course the dealerships are a start... lexus dealerships are in general, beautiful places. toyota dealers are mostly pretty utilitarian like other mainstream brands.

but on the vehicles themselves, things like available paint colors and finishes, extra pieces of artfully styled trim pieces inside and outside, the comfort and adjustability of the seats, the quality of the carpeting, mats, and so on... all matter, in the perceived and actual 'value'. it's not about 'quality' because a cheap or expensive car can be high quality (minimal defects).

e.g., if you put a camry and an es350 side by side, it's glaringly obvious why an es350 costs more to buy.

 

about time!

 

Amen to that. Seriously, Toyotas pught to have 6 speed manual/automatic throughout it's lineup. That particular aspect should not be a differentiating factor between models/grades, especially now that competition is so stiff. Get with it Toyota.

 

TRD, so many things to respond to, to your enormous post. All in all, I wouldnt be buying Lexus cars if I didnt think they are worth it. From a wallet standpoint, you get (almost) MB prestige for less money, better service, better quality (though that isnt as true as it was in the past), better features for far less money.

However! Every time I get into my Benz, I am reminded of why it costs more than the competition. There is something very precise and luxurious about the switch gear. Design wise, it is unique to MB. The brand has its own design elements, and its pretty much unmistakable. In the same way, when you see a BMW interior, you know what it is. As far as I know, while Chrysler and MB shared mechanical parts, interior design elements were not shared, ie. door handle design, door lock design, etc. But the toyota/lexus issue I am referring too, I guess Ill add now, stems farther than just part sharing. its also design sharing elements. It is a lot better now, such as in the past the door handle and door lock was the same piece, but finally Lexus adds a somewhat different design. But the placement is in the same area.

Toyota Land Cruise switchgear


versus ES350


door lock button and window lock button id dare to say are the same pieces, are even in the same placement. The actual window levers look the same too. And it goes on, with seat controls too. I just noticed that the LS and GS also share this same design in door lock and window lock buttons.

I guess we just see things differently. I would just like to see more differentiation. It would definitely make myself a more satisfied customer. And lets not forget that MB and BMW sales are catching up close, so clearly the market might be saying that this strategy is not going to work forever.

I guess it comes down to what you deem as worthy of your money. If you are fine with exceptional build quality with good materials, in a nice car, then current Lexus models are perfect. But dont you even have the slightest tinkling in your mind, that your extra money should buy you something different than the much cheaper toyota?

I dont think I said there are no compelling reasons to buy a Lexus. For 1, I get that extra 2mpg right?--from the Rxh versus highlander h . But I only bring these up as a point of discussion. I think its nice that we have a place to discuss current issues facing the company we like.

Hyundai making great strides in hybrid technology
Li-polymer gel battery
206 horsepower yet still getting 35/40 mpg
all electric mode up to 74mph
impressive for a first hybrid, isnt it?

 

that Land Cruiser is more expensive car than ES350, and yet you see abundance of plastic on LC vs leather and wood on ES350.

I dont think that something as simple as window switches need to be designed completely different on Lexus than Toyota, just to be different for the sake of being different.

Toyota, by far, has the most easy to use interiors on the market, and to spoil that just because, would be stupid.

In my 3 years with GS350, never felt like there are parts of Yaris inside.

 

why do they have to have that? I dont agree with that at all.

They obviously do not have to have it, since they are best selling retail brand in the US, in the year of all the horrible media attention.

In Europe, they have had most advanced engine lineup on the market, and sales dropped because their cars were too expensive.