2011 Hyundai Equus Preview
08-11-10, 06:33 PM
#16
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The LS was the quietest, among the most powerful in class with the best MPG and best CD. That is REVOLUTION. It offered a completely different interior that was luxurious. It offered less maintenance and superior reliability. All for a cheaper price.
That is REVOLUTION. Every single review when it debuted said it was one of the greatest cars ever made and simply created a new standard.
That is REVOLUTION. To this day it is the only D class Japanese flagship and the LS 460 debuted 11 world firsts.
What world first is the Equus debuting? Do tell? Name one.
And I speak as an original 1990 LS400 owner who bought it within two months of Lexus releasing it. The LS400 was a cheaper, more reliable copy of luxury brands at the time. It too was sold at cost or under cost to take market share. The criticisms I read about Hyundai today, are the same ones that I remember Lexus was criticized for when it first launched. And yeah, we got a lot of jabs about buying an "overpriced Toyota."[/QUOTE]
I don't think I said there were not similarities. However the Equus is no first gen LS. It simply is the first for Hyundai.
And I've always said everyone copies from everyone. Clearly the original LS had to use others to guide it. Most will say it shares Benz cues. However sitting inside it was clearly Japanese and unlike anything seen.
Lexus can build the LFA and people will still say "its a copy". Not worried about every opinion.
That is REVOLUTION. Every single review when it debuted said it was one of the greatest cars ever made and simply created a new standard.
That is REVOLUTION. To this day it is the only D class Japanese flagship and the LS 460 debuted 11 world firsts.
What world first is the Equus debuting? Do tell? Name one.
And I speak as an original 1990 LS400 owner who bought it within two months of Lexus releasing it. The LS400 was a cheaper, more reliable copy of luxury brands at the time. It too was sold at cost or under cost to take market share. The criticisms I read about Hyundai today, are the same ones that I remember Lexus was criticized for when it first launched. And yeah, we got a lot of jabs about buying an "overpriced Toyota."[/QUOTE]
I don't think I said there were not similarities. However the Equus is no first gen LS. It simply is the first for Hyundai.
Here's what the Chicago Tribune had to say about it in 1989:
Toyota took the BMW, Jaguar and Mercedes, separated the good features from the bad, then reassembled the parts and components into one machine using only the best features from each.
. . .
The immediate impression is that the Japanese again demonstrated their ability to copy. Lexus sheet metal is similar to Mercedes`, the instrument panel BMW-like and interior seating and design looks to be lifted from Jaguar. You may recall Lexus aroused controversy before it went on sale when LEXIS, the electronic legal information service, charged that the Toyota name was too similar to its own. That dispute was settled out of court.
Here is what the HEAD OF DESIGN at MB had to say about Lexus:
"People explain to us it is really an honour to have someone copy our cars, but I don't think we see it that way any more," said Harald Leschke, the head of design at Mercedes-Benz. "I think it is quite obvious that they admire the design, then try to do it their way. I'm sure in some industries this sort of thing is not legal.
"What surprises us most is that [Lexus] are prepared to do it, in public, and that customers are prepared to buy their copycat cars."
Leschke said the LS430 was Lexus's opportunity to do its own design and head in a different direction "but instead they copy other designs".
"I think it's fair to say all their cars have been influenced by someone else's models," he said. "They don't have a history so they have to copy someone else's."
Toyota took the BMW, Jaguar and Mercedes, separated the good features from the bad, then reassembled the parts and components into one machine using only the best features from each.
. . .
The immediate impression is that the Japanese again demonstrated their ability to copy. Lexus sheet metal is similar to Mercedes`, the instrument panel BMW-like and interior seating and design looks to be lifted from Jaguar. You may recall Lexus aroused controversy before it went on sale when LEXIS, the electronic legal information service, charged that the Toyota name was too similar to its own. That dispute was settled out of court.
Here is what the HEAD OF DESIGN at MB had to say about Lexus:
"People explain to us it is really an honour to have someone copy our cars, but I don't think we see it that way any more," said Harald Leschke, the head of design at Mercedes-Benz. "I think it is quite obvious that they admire the design, then try to do it their way. I'm sure in some industries this sort of thing is not legal.
"What surprises us most is that [Lexus] are prepared to do it, in public, and that customers are prepared to buy their copycat cars."
Leschke said the LS430 was Lexus's opportunity to do its own design and head in a different direction "but instead they copy other designs".
"I think it's fair to say all their cars have been influenced by someone else's models," he said. "They don't have a history so they have to copy someone else's."
Lexus can build the LFA and people will still say "its a copy". Not worried about every opinion.
08-11-10, 06:36 PM
#17
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Care to explain what was so revolutionary about the LS when it debuted? And I speak as an original 1990 LS400 owner who bought it within two months of Lexus releasing it. The LS400 was a cheaper, more reliable copy of luxury brands at the time. It too was sold at cost or under cost to take market share. The criticisms I read about Hyundai today, are the same ones that I remember Lexus was criticized for when it first launched. And yeah, we got a lot of jabs about buying an "overpriced Toyota."
Here's what the Chicago Tribune had to say about it in 1989:
Toyota took the BMW, Jaguar and Mercedes, separated the good features from the bad, then reassembled the parts and components into one machine using only the best features from each.
Here's what the Chicago Tribune had to say about it in 1989:
Toyota took the BMW, Jaguar and Mercedes, separated the good features from the bad, then reassembled the parts and components into one machine using only the best features from each.
So, in essence, this was a groundbreaking car for a Japanese manufacturer......no Japanese firm had ever done a car like this before (even the Acura Legend) in the American market.
08-11-10, 06:37 PM
#18
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Care to explain what was so revolutionary about the LS when it debuted? And I speak as an original 1990 LS400 owner who bought it within two months of Lexus releasing it. The LS400 was a cheaper, more reliable copy of luxury brands at the time. It too was sold at cost or under cost to take market share. The criticisms I read about Hyundai today, are the same ones that I remember Lexus was criticized for when it first launched. And yeah, we got a lot of jabs about buying an "overpriced Toyota."
Here's what the Chicago Tribune had to say about it in 1989:
Toyota took the BMW, Jaguar and Mercedes, separated the good features from the bad, then reassembled the parts and components into one machine using only the best features from each.
. . .
The immediate impression is that the Japanese again demonstrated their ability to copy. Lexus sheet metal is similar to Mercedes`, the instrument panel BMW-like and interior seating and design looks to be lifted from Jaguar. You may recall Lexus aroused controversy before it went on sale when LEXIS, the electronic legal information service, charged that the Toyota name was too similar to its own. That dispute was settled out of court.
Here is what the HEAD OF DESIGN at MB had to say about Lexus:
"People explain to us it is really an honour to have someone copy our cars, but I don't think we see it that way any more," said Harald Leschke, the head of design at Mercedes-Benz. "I think it is quite obvious that they admire the design, then try to do it their way. I'm sure in some industries this sort of thing is not legal.
"What surprises us most is that [Lexus] are prepared to do it, in public, and that customers are prepared to buy their copycat cars."
Leschke said the LS430 was Lexus's opportunity to do its own design and head in a different direction "but instead they copy other designs".
"I think it's fair to say all their cars have been influenced by someone else's models," he said. "They don't have a history so they have to copy someone else's."
Here's what the Chicago Tribune had to say about it in 1989:
Toyota took the BMW, Jaguar and Mercedes, separated the good features from the bad, then reassembled the parts and components into one machine using only the best features from each.
. . .
The immediate impression is that the Japanese again demonstrated their ability to copy. Lexus sheet metal is similar to Mercedes`, the instrument panel BMW-like and interior seating and design looks to be lifted from Jaguar. You may recall Lexus aroused controversy before it went on sale when LEXIS, the electronic legal information service, charged that the Toyota name was too similar to its own. That dispute was settled out of court.
Here is what the HEAD OF DESIGN at MB had to say about Lexus:
"People explain to us it is really an honour to have someone copy our cars, but I don't think we see it that way any more," said Harald Leschke, the head of design at Mercedes-Benz. "I think it is quite obvious that they admire the design, then try to do it their way. I'm sure in some industries this sort of thing is not legal.
"What surprises us most is that [Lexus] are prepared to do it, in public, and that customers are prepared to buy their copycat cars."
Leschke said the LS430 was Lexus's opportunity to do its own design and head in a different direction "but instead they copy other designs".
"I think it's fair to say all their cars have been influenced by someone else's models," he said. "They don't have a history so they have to copy someone else's."
However, technologically and mechanically, the LS offered quite a few world firsts and cutting edge things. The Equus on the other hand seemingly does not.
The LS also redefined what quality meant in a luxury car. I very highly doubt the Equus is going to redefine quality, especially since it's already been available in Korea for a long while.
Well, they may not NEED to "learn" that, in the sense you are saying. There's a thread in CAR CHAT, right now, about how Hyundai is now in the top-five-most considered brands on the market by prospective car shoppers. Whether that extends up to the Genesis and Equus remains to be seen.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...-big-jump.html
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/car...-big-jump.html
The fact that the Equus will be directly delivered to people's homes instead of being sold at the dealership shows that Hyundai knows about their problem, and that Hyundai itself does not want the Equus to be even seen at Hyundai dealerships.
08-11-10, 06:40 PM
#19
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the ls was indeed revolutionary......but what else can a luxury car do now to be revolutionary that hasn't been done before ? unless it can get 30mpg on the 8 banger, I don't know what else can possibly be done to be revolutionary....maybe 6 wheels and two steering wheels ? I dunno
I don't think I said there were not similarities. However the Equus is no first gen LS. It simply is the first for Hyundai.
And I've always said everyone copies from everyone. Clearly the original LS had to use others to guide it. Most will say it shares Benz cues. However sitting inside it was clearly Japanese and unlike anything seen.
Lexus can build the LFA and people will still say "its a copy". Not worried about every opinion.[/QUOTE]
The LS was the quietest, among the most powerful in class with the best MPG and best CD. That is REVOLUTION. It offered a completely different interior that was luxurious. It offered less maintenance and superior reliability. All for a cheaper price.
That is REVOLUTION. Every single review when it debuted said it was one of the greatest cars ever made and simply created a new standard.
That is REVOLUTION. To this day it is the only D class Japanese flagship and the LS 460 debuted 11 world firsts.
What world first is the Equus debuting? Do tell? Name one.
And I speak as an original 1990 LS400 owner who bought it within two months of Lexus releasing it. The LS400 was a cheaper, more reliable copy of luxury brands at the time. It too was sold at cost or under cost to take market share. The criticisms I read about Hyundai today, are the same ones that I remember Lexus was criticized for when it first launched. And yeah, we got a lot of jabs about buying an "overpriced Toyota."
That is REVOLUTION. Every single review when it debuted said it was one of the greatest cars ever made and simply created a new standard.
That is REVOLUTION. To this day it is the only D class Japanese flagship and the LS 460 debuted 11 world firsts.
What world first is the Equus debuting? Do tell? Name one.
And I speak as an original 1990 LS400 owner who bought it within two months of Lexus releasing it. The LS400 was a cheaper, more reliable copy of luxury brands at the time. It too was sold at cost or under cost to take market share. The criticisms I read about Hyundai today, are the same ones that I remember Lexus was criticized for when it first launched. And yeah, we got a lot of jabs about buying an "overpriced Toyota."
And I've always said everyone copies from everyone. Clearly the original LS had to use others to guide it. Most will say it shares Benz cues. However sitting inside it was clearly Japanese and unlike anything seen.
Lexus can build the LFA and people will still say "its a copy". Not worried about every opinion.
[/QUOTE]
08-11-10, 06:41 PM
#20
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Well, I hope that is not the case, but (maybe?) they are loooking closely at what happened to the VW Phaeton and the 2Gen Acura RL, and using that as a guide.
Though, of course, you can't tell people howe to spend their money, I still think that the public was foolish in shunning both the RL and Phaeton....see my post above.
Though, of course, you can't tell people howe to spend their money, I still think that the public was foolish in shunning both the RL and Phaeton....see my post above.
The facts are we can act like image/brand/panache don't matter but they do. People can come on the internet and act like they don't care but they do. Its the ugly reality that BRAND and IMAGE sells and I've said it for ten years here.
Hell there are people today that won't buy a Lexus based on image. They hate the idea of a Japanese luxury car. Lexus has to do its job as a business to continue to move up and convince people its the real deal. Some will NEVER change. That is fine.
The reality is the higher the price the more badge counts, especially in traditional areas. We are seeing tons of people and reviews say the LFA is not worth it b/c "its a Lexus". I can understand that.
I'll withold judgement on how the car compares directly to the LS until I see and drive it. But, if the two on display at the Washington, D.C. Auto show last January were any guide, the Equus interior will be pretty impressive, with lots of Jaguar and LS-type wood paneling. It also has a stunning, chrome, Rolls-Royce type hood ornament. So, lots of bling......but (hopefully) we'll see what's under that surface bling when the time comes.
08-11-10, 06:48 PM
#22
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the ls was indeed revolutionary......but what else can a luxury car do now to be revolutionary that hasn't been done before ? unless it can get 30mpg on the 8 banger, I don't know what else can possibly be done to be revolutionary....maybe 6 wheels and two steering wheels ? I dunno
A creative or imaginative company can always find something revolutionary. Getting 30 MPG EPA with a V8 engine would be one example. Setting a new higher standard for quality, reliability and durability would be another example. Offering something such as a revolutionary step forward in voice commands, or a completely customizable gauge display (which some of the competition has already done to an extent). The list goes on and on.
If Hyundai can't be creative or imaginative, then that is Hyundai's fault, and nobody else's.
08-11-10, 06:49 PM
#23
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the ls was indeed revolutionary......but what else can a luxury car do now to be revolutionary that hasn't been done before ? unless it can get 30mpg on the 8 banger, I don't know what else can possibly be done to be revolutionary....maybe 6 wheels and two steering wheels ? I dunno
]
]
The Genesis has the same issue. It is a fantastic car but its not the BEST in any category outside of price.
For them to really enter these markets they need to be the BEST instead of just trying to shock people into saying "wow thats a Hyundai"
Mind you this is NOT a Hyundai specific problem. Acura, Infiniti, Saab, Volvo etc have it. What are they the best at? Nothing.
Lexus has to at least keep its standing at best in quality/customer service while expanding into other markets. Clearly this year has been a struggle for them and its harder for the brand to sell cars.
08-11-10, 06:57 PM
#24
Hyundai has a fair amount of buzz going recently with the Genesis Coupe and new Sonata. But I do feel that Hyundai should have created a separate luxury division for the Genesis. Production numbers have been low for the Genesis sedan so far, but that could change.
A friend of mine bought a 2010 Genesis sedan with the Technology Package and 4.6L engine. From an options perspective, it's ridiculously loaded, including a stereo that puts the ML in my GS430 to shame. He ended up paying $37k from a dealer in VA, which was $2k more than a loaded Avalon he had looked at the week before.
I'm not sure that the Equus is going to be a big seller given the current economy. But everything I have read about Hyundai indicates that they are committed to the luxury models they have. What I like is that I will probably be able to buy a loaded 2010 Genesis sedan in three years in the $17-18k range.
A friend of mine bought a 2010 Genesis sedan with the Technology Package and 4.6L engine. From an options perspective, it's ridiculously loaded, including a stereo that puts the ML in my GS430 to shame. He ended up paying $37k from a dealer in VA, which was $2k more than a loaded Avalon he had looked at the week before.
I'm not sure that the Equus is going to be a big seller given the current economy. But everything I have read about Hyundai indicates that they are committed to the luxury models they have. What I like is that I will probably be able to buy a loaded 2010 Genesis sedan in three years in the $17-18k range.
08-11-10, 07:00 PM
#25
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Thread Starter
Some would argue VW and Acura were foolish for trying to sell them. All signs show that consumer did not and would not want them. They built it anyway. I don't knock VW for trying, it is a superb car built off a Bentley platform and is true luxury car. The RL is an accord based car that does nothing great and has failed for 16 years. Whats the point?
The facts are we can act like image/brand/panache don't matter but they do. People can come on the internet and act like they don't care but they do. Its the ugly reality that BRAND and IMAGE sells and I've said it for ten years here.
Hell there are people today that won't buy a Lexus based on image. They hate the idea of a Japanese luxury car. Lexus has to do its job as a business to continue to move up and convince people its the real deal. Some will NEVER change. That is fine.
Hell there are people today that won't buy a Lexus based on image. They hate the idea of a Japanese luxury car. Lexus has to do its job as a business to continue to move up and convince people its the real deal. Some will NEVER change. That is fine.
08-11-10, 10:26 PM
#26
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I do see a lot more of the genesis sedan than ever before; come to think of it, hyundai did with the genesis sedan than acura ever did with the RL, in fact hyundai did with the genesis sedan than infiniti ever did with the q45 and that has to mean something right ?
the genesis is a lot of car for the price, 37k....is that 37k out the door ? wow!
the genesis is a lot of car for the price, 37k....is that 37k out the door ? wow!
08-12-10, 04:21 AM
#27
I do see a lot more of the genesis sedan than ever before; come to think of it, hyundai did with the genesis sedan than acura ever did with the RL, in fact hyundai did with the genesis sedan than infiniti ever did with the q45 and that has to mean something right ?
the genesis is a lot of car for the price, 37k....is that 37k out the door ? wow!
the genesis is a lot of car for the price, 37k....is that 37k out the door ? wow!
However,in conversations with friends and relatives,most say they wouldn't spend $37K for a Hyundai and that's Hyundai's problem.In fact some laughed about that.
Hyundai knows that and that's why there's no Hyundai badge on the car.
I think people will change their minds in the future,though.
I agree with many who feel Hyundai needs a separate luxury showroom for the Genesis.Equus....
08-12-10, 04:31 AM
#28
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Mike from my understanding most will be sold per order to peoples homes. They won't have them on dealer lots. I'm sure a few dealers will but not sure who yet. Hyundai won't be shipping tons as sales expectations are very very very low. I hope you can get one to review though.
They have plenty of experience, copying. Unlike the LS, this brings nothing new or different to the market. It simply is another D class sedan. I give them kudos for offering it but its NOT LIKE THE LS at all.
The LS became one of the best sellers in two years. This car will not even be at dealerships, it will be sold at customers homes. They might sell 200-1,000 a year. The LS sells that IN A MONTH.
They have plenty of experience, copying. Unlike the LS, this brings nothing new or different to the market. It simply is another D class sedan. I give them kudos for offering it but its NOT LIKE THE LS at all.
The LS became one of the best sellers in two years. This car will not even be at dealerships, it will be sold at customers homes. They might sell 200-1,000 a year. The LS sells that IN A MONTH.
And I know I'd take an LS over the Equus irregardless, just like to looks better...
08-12-10, 05:58 AM
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I think you're putting the cart before the horse here. You're confusing Hyundai's auto-marketing with simple public ignorance. If the public won't buy the Genesis, that's not Hyundai's fault. They did their part and designed a pretty nice upmarket-sedan. Same with the Acura RL and VW Phaeton, which proved unpopular....both were excellent cars (and buys) that people ignored.
You can lead a horse to water, but......................
Of course, we are in hard economic times, too, and a lot of people simply don't have 40K (or have good credit) to spend on a Genesis, Hyundai-nameplate or not. I myself, though I could maybe afford it, probably wouldn't pay more than 35-40K on any new car, regardless of the nameplate, just on principle.
BTW...slightly off-topic, but your signature (E6BAV8R)...I take it you are (or were) part of a USN or USMC E6 Prowler crew....maybe carrier-based? I'm a licensed pilot, worked for the FAA, was once with the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C., and so I readily recognize aviation-related data. And, also in your signature (AV8R) did that also include the USMC AV8 Harrier, or is that just a play on the word "aviator"?
You can lead a horse to water, but......................
Of course, we are in hard economic times, too, and a lot of people simply don't have 40K (or have good credit) to spend on a Genesis, Hyundai-nameplate or not. I myself, though I could maybe afford it, probably wouldn't pay more than 35-40K on any new car, regardless of the nameplate, just on principle.
BTW...slightly off-topic, but your signature (E6BAV8R)...I take it you are (or were) part of a USN or USMC E6 Prowler crew....maybe carrier-based? I'm a licensed pilot, worked for the FAA, was once with the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C., and so I readily recognize aviation-related data. And, also in your signature (AV8R) did that also include the USMC AV8 Harrier, or is that just a play on the word "aviator"?
In a perfect world, you are totally correct. However, everyone knows how much this world is driven off of brand recognition. Many, many people only buy things because of the brand name on the front of it. Wrong or not, it is the reality we live in. If Versace started making toilet paper - do you think people would buy it? Of course some would, solely based on the brand name and what it represents in the fashion world.
The fact still remains that, no matter how good or relevant your product may be - A) People have to know about it, and B) You have to cater to a specific market. You can't make a one-size fits-all vehicle for every working class under the same brand.
(To your other point, mmarshall: I am a Corporate pilot and work for one of the largest flight simulator training companies in the world.)
08-12-10, 06:25 AM
#30
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Thread Starter
In a perfect world, you are totally correct. However, everyone knows how much this world is driven off of brand recognition. Many, many people only buy things because of the brand name on the front of it. Wrong or not, it is the reality we live in. If Versace started making toilet paper - do you think people would buy it? Of course some would, solely based on the brand name and what it represents in the fashion world.
The fact still remains that, no matter how good or relevant your product may be - A) People have to know about it, and B) You have to cater to a specific market. You can't make a one-size fits-all vehicle for every working class under the same brand.
The fact still remains that, no matter how good or relevant your product may be - A) People have to know about it, and B) You have to cater to a specific market. You can't make a one-size fits-all vehicle for every working class under the same brand.
(To your other point, mmarshall: I am a Corporate pilot and work for one of the largest flight simulator training companies in the world.)