TRDFantasy

Exactly. There are some brands in the world that have survived competition for hundreds of years. The auto market is not that old yet, but automakers like Benz and Ford have survived competition for at least 100 years. Benz and Ford also continue to be regarded as good brands worldwide.

Also on the topic of "things change", trade policies for various countries change. Who knows what the trade policies of various countries will be like in the future? For example, Chinese cars have been on-sale in certain Eastern European markets for years now, but they have yet to go on-sale in North America.

Tata is trying to bring the Nano to the US but has already warned it will be much more expensive than the basic model sold in India due to all the regulations and requirements Tata must meet in order to sell it here in North America. The irony is that the US Nano will cost close to the price of a base model Hyundai Accent.

The truth is, when (and if) Chinese and Indian automakers arrive in the US, they will compete with each other at the bottom of the market. The real volume in the auto market is in the middle, a middle which is firmly occupied and fiercely defended by established brands.

Look at Toyota. For many years now it has tried to take on the American automakers in the full-size truck market and has so far failed to do major damage in the market. Even amongst American automakers, the Ford F-Series has been the sales king for decades.

We can also look at Lexus. Despite all the success that Toyota has achieved with Lexus, it's still the #4 luxury brand worldwide in terms of volume and many people still do not perceive Lexus to be equal to Benz, BMW, or Audi.

Despite all the recent success Hyundai has achieved, they are still not a full-line automaker, and they've been in the US market for 24 years.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

i don't understand the analogy because there is no one car maker that's as dominant as coke is in soda.

that's why i have my web site about infinite competition - because that's exactly where we're headed, to CHAOS in the car market, but it won't kill everyone, it will just be a BRUTALLY competitive business, much, much worse than today.

sure, in a world of infinite competition, brands will come, and, even long established ones, will go.

but that coming, going, merging, and spinning off will become the norm - chaos.

i respectfully disagree. you had a bad experience with hyundai, but NO ONE would have predicted they'd be doing as well today as they are, and they know that India and China are right behind them, learning. even other countries like brazil, may well become powerful in autos.

how easily though we dismiss countries like China, where a vast amount of the world's most sophisticated electronics are made, including iphones.

but those brands have NEVER seen what's happening today. bmw and mercedes have done remarkably well in the last couple of decades, by adapting and making tons of their vehicles outside Germany, including tons in the u.s.

and brands are independent of countries - it's not unthinkable at all that bmw will begin making cars in china for EXPORT, at which point we can say that's still a bmw, but ok, it's also a CHINESE made car, the brand is basically irrelevant except for marketing purposes.

i agree, and both makers make cars in many places around the world, and will likely use india and china as bases to make cars too.

so when i say india and china are coming, they may well come as trojan horses through brands we know and love.

in other words, the only constant is change, and to assume anything won't happen or is unthinkable is naive.

see hyundai.

see hyundai. the sonata's beginning to make a real dent. it's a great car and a better value than an accord or camry, but it takes time for more and more market penetration.

no question some segments are very hard to get into, but not impossible. although an excellent truck, even the latest tundra failed in head to head comparison to the f series. if they'd done their homework better, they would have done better.

true, and it's easy to see why, the product lines just aren't very comparable and lexus has chosen to be EXTREMELY limited in how you can get a vehicle configured, because of their mass production mentality, which is a real achilles heel for them which they still seem reluctant to change, but of course they're still doing very well.

ok, but what's your point? ok, they haven't entered every segment. nor has ANY maker.

mmarshall

It's on my list....has been for some time, just waiting for Hyundai to release it in the American market. But, right now, it's unclear just how Hyundai is going to market it, or if it will be in stock at Hyundai shops. It could (?) turn out to be a special-order car only.

J.P.

Paul its more than my one bad experience, and my analogy of Coke like any brand is that there is usually a hand full of top dogs that eat up a majority of the market and the rest fight for the scraps. In this country anyway, there isn’t enough room for 10 top dogs so I am not worried about India or China in the auto market. 50 years from now? who knows, but I wont care by then anyway

LexFather

In 50 years I will be looking at luxurious wheelchairs

mmarshall

................and 50-year-old antique Buicks?

Och

iTrader: (3)

Nah man, being the hippie that you are, you'll be looking for a greenie hybrid wheelchair

LexFather

lol at Mike and Och

YEH

While a bit diff. since Toyota launched the Lexus brand, the Lexus brand had no cache at the beginning, which is why Toyota had to heavily subsidize sales of the LS400 and give it a ridiculously low original MSRP of $35K.

Hyundai knows that in the long-term, to be a big player in the luxury market, that they will need to launch a lux brand and dealer network, but it just didn't make sense financially at this time (again, Hyundai is planning to launch its lux nameplate when the 2nd gen Genesis and a higher volume, compact RWD sedan are ready; they also have at least one CUV in the works as well).

All in all, considering the state of the economy, the Genesis sedan (not so much for the coupe) has been a decent success for Hyundai, despite the branding issue (keep in mind that the cost of establishing a new nameplate and dealer network would have added at $5-7K to the sticker price of the Genesis sedan which would have mitigated any increase in sales from having a lux nameplate).

And yet, you constantly harp about Hyundai doing so.

The LS400 on the exterior only really shared Benz cues from the front (E Class more than S Class); the side and rear were not really Benz at all.

Otoh, the LS430 had an eery resemblance to the S Class of the time (which is why the chief of design at Mercedes actually spoke out, a rarity in the design world).

The % of Genesis sedans going to fleet is miniscule (for 2009, 175 Gen-sedans went to fleet, w/ only a handful of those going to rental agencies).

Also, the % of 2011 Sonata going to fleet is around 8-9%, which is about the same as Toyota's overall fleet %.

If Hyundai had made more SE and Limited models over the past few months, they would have been able to sell them easily (for July, Hyundai manufactured 16 more units of the Sonata than they sold), and consequently has adjusted their production settings to make more SE and LTD trims and less GLS.

According to JD Power, Hyundai has a better dealer CSI score than Toyota (albeit pretty much all the Asian makes aren't that good).

As for depreciation, Hyundai has improved vastly (esp. for the newer models) and according to ALS, is in the top 10 for residual value (#8, ahead of Ford).

It's amusing, tho hardly surprising that you pin-point Hyundau w/ regard to subframe corrosion issues.

Should Hyundai have done a better job understanding the copious amount of salt used in the cold-weather areas of the US? You bet.

But let's not gloss over the fact that for a couple of decades, the Japanese makes were commonly referred to as Japanese "crap/rusted tin cans."

Furthermore, despite having decades of experience more than Hyundai on American roads, I seem to recall Toyota still having corrosion issues (Tundra, Tacoma), as well as other Japanese makes.

Other Nissan models, such as the Pathfinder, were also found to have corrosion issues.

YEH

Actually, the Equus is to sold only by 250 Hyundai dealers which not only have newer/more modern facilities, but which are also required to have an Equus-only showroom.

The at home sales and service is just a higher end of service.

As for the Phaeton, it failed more so b/c -

1. it brought absolutely zero to the value equation

2. had to compete against an Audi stablemate which, itself, was struggling w/ sales

3. looked way too much like an overgrown Passat


Hyundai is not banking on sales volume (yearly US allotment will be limited to around 3K; btw, the 1st year's alottment is already spoken for) since this is more or less a training exercise and stop-gap measure until Hyundia is ready to launch its premium nameplate.

One could easily say the same about the Lexus LS400, which was priced not only well-below the S Class, but below a well-equipped E Class as well.

Not really, the resale on the Genesis sedan is pretty good (better than anything from the domestics and better than the Infiniti M).

Which still severely undercut the market.