With things getting quiet, I was pretty much convinced that the automakers would get what they want although the price of the check is getting bigger by the week. The November car sales thread is fascinating looking at everyone's decline in car sales because GFC are making the case that they are now doing worse because of the bankruptcy talk. Well, they may be doing worse than the top cos like Toyota but looking at Toyota's numbers, I would argue that GFC just are that worse at the product the supply.

Anyway, a fairly recent poll. Before anyone posts that it is only a 1,000 people or so, save the bandwidth. Nobody polls 300M people other than once every couple of years. And even then, not everyone makes input.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A national poll suggests that six in 10 Americans oppose using taxpayer money to help the ailing major U.S. auto companies.

Sixty-one percent of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey out Wednesday are dead set against the federal government providing billions of dollars in assistance the the auto makers, with 36 percent favoring such a bailout.

The poll, conducted Monday and Tuesday, also indicates that a majority of Americans, 53 percent, don't think government assistance for the auto makers will help the U.S. economy.

"Only 15 percent say that they would be immediately affected if the auto companies went bankrupt," CNN Polling Director Keating Holland said. "Seven in 10 say that a bailout would be unfair to American taxpayers."

In early November, polls indicated that nearly half the public supported federal assistance to the big auto makers when this issue first came before Congress.

But evidence in surveys from other organizations suggests that the poor performance by executives from GM, Ford and Chrysler at congressional hearings, and the admission that they had taken private jets to get there, resulted in a steep drop in support for government assistance to automakers.

The new CNN poll indicates that those wounds have yet to heal as the executives return to Capitol Hill for more hearings this week.

"This indicates that the upcoming do-over that the auto executives will get in another round of congressional hearings may be crucial to swaying the public and getting the assistance package passed through Congress," Holland said.

Opposition to the bailout of the auto industry is widespread across the country, even the Midwest, where the domestic auto makers have their headquarters and many of their assembly plants.

The poll indicates that most opposition to the bailout comes from the West, where opposition reaches 67 percent. Sixty-one percent of those polled in the Northeast, 64 percent in the South and 53 percent in the Midwest oppose using federal dollars to help the auto makers.

The poll also suggests that a vast majority of Republicans, 70 percent, oppose the bailout, with 62 percent of independents and 55 percent of Democrats also opposed.

The auto companies say that if they don't receive government assistance, they could go into bankruptcy. If that happens, only 15 percent of those polled think they would be immediately affected, with another 19 percent saying they would feel the impact within a year or so.


Forty-three percent say they would eventually feel an effect from such a bankruptcy, and 24 percent say they will never feel the impact.

The CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll was conducted by phone, with 1,096 adult Americans questioned. The survey's sampling error is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/...oll/index.html

It's not that long of an article so I hope it isn't much for people to read here. I could have highlighted the whole thing. Pretty interesting. I still don't think that a check fixes what's wrong with decades of screwups at GFC. These guys should be in bankruptcy, not liquidation but honest to goodness restructuring and making the company the size that's appropriate to the sales they can realistically expect to get. Not some fantasy about going back to selling 10M vehicles a year out of total US demand of 18M. We may get back to a good auto market size in the US but I just don't see GFC increasing or even maintaining market share. Looks like that is pretty much the majority opinion.

Very interesting and probably a fairly balanced poll for a change. On another forum we have been dissecting the GM proposal that has gone to the feds, they are making a "real sacrifice" by dropping 8 of their 40+ odd models, and closing some 1400 dealerships, which still leaves GM with more dealers than Ford and Honda combined. There appears to be no effort in the proposal to trim the fat from the union contracts, nor to really impact management compensations. The proposal looks to be MOS (more of same) and a bigger handout request when they burn through the now $18 B that they are begging for.

hahah pretty interesting article, nice bolded points there

and me? i have always been against the bailout. if they bailout these auto makers that are failing so bad anyway, why not bailout everything out there?

Would you happen to have a link to the real proposal? I have seen various leaked news reports but I haven't seen anywhere yet where the actual proposal from any of them was released. Even this morning, the early news stories on Gettelfingers press conference was that the UAW was ready to eliminate the jobs bank. That was quickly revised to be that someone, who does not want to be named, made the statement that the UAW would proposal would "virtually eliminate the jobs bank". Well that's a much different story.

The best reason for GFC to go into bankruptcy is not that they have to renegotiate the UAW contract, they need to rip them up and bust the union. Otherwise, they will find that whatever the UAW does will only be a "concesssion" and if sales come back, they will be right back wanting to put the same plans back in effect that keep GFC from competing. And GFC management will cave. Once again, I am not saying that the UAW is the only problem GFC have. Far from it. But they need fixes, not just diversions and bandaids. I really want to take a look at those plans but I doubt they will be released.

One of the things I found interesting is that the poll was conducted on Monday and Tuesday and released today. We all know in this internet age that opinions can change pretty quickly. I was getting of the opinion that maybe people had gone to sleep on this. If the pols are watching, they won't feel very comfortable writing the checks. If I recall correctly, Senate has their hearing Thursday and House on Friday. May have that reversed but I think it all gets front and center in the next couple of days. Especially since GM has said they need $4B to make it to New Years eve.

I'll see if I can find a link, or copy of the proposal, may take a bit. I understand that it's quite lengthy and pulling rationale info from it is like trying to separate flysh1t from pepper.

Quite in agreement with your assessment of the union issues. The Big 2.5 have suffered from the terrible management, a corporate culture that was developed by building little empires and fiefdoms with little or no accountability, and by caving in to union demands, no matter how outrageous. Chapter 11 might give them the ability to really reorganize and enter into the 21st century, but only if a lot of the current corporate culture is dropped.

Just received this blurb, partial reprint so as not to step on copyrights:

<UAW leaders said they would allow U.S. auto makers to delay payments into a massive health-care trust and suspend the controversial jobs bank program for laid-off workers, part of an effort to help>

Note the language, the UAW is conceding that they are willing to "suspend" the jobs bank program, and delay payments into the health care trust - these don't go away, just go dorment for a while - at least till no one is looking, or until the bailout tax dollars come through.

^^ I definitely noticed the change in wording to "suspend". I guess to the UAW the only smart ones in the country have a union label. Suspending the jobs bank to get it back, with interest, a couple of years from now is not the answer. It may keep Gettelfinger off the production line in his current job but it isn't going to solve GFCs problems. Then again, the UAW doesn't exactly want to reveal much about their contract either. Gettelfinger can tell you how many guys are currently on break in every GFC facility in the country but when he was asked this morning how many members are currently in the jobs bank, he didn't know. Yeah, right. Just tell us that if taxpayers found out how many UAW members are earning 95% of their pay to do nothing, then there wouldn't be any bailout, no fat retirement fund, no union dues, etc.

Nothing like having SNL poke fun at you. Seems like Americans just adopt whatever is most amusing on saturday night. The automakers are claiming, at least GM, that they have no plan B. Might want to rethink that guys.

Reid: Carmaker aid bill doesn’t have needed votes
The Associated Press

Wed, Dec 3, 2008 (3:33 p.m.)

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says the Democrats' plan to tap the Wall Street rescue fund to save U.S. automakers doesn't have the votes to pass.

One day after Detroit's Big Three sent survival plans to Capitol Hill in an urgent plea for $34 billion in government aid, Reid said there's still not enough support in Congress for using some of the $700 billion bailout to help the teetering carmakers.

He told The Associated Press in an interview, "I just don't think we have the votes to do that now."

The Bush administration and auto-state Republicans and Democrats are pushing instead to take a $25 billion program to help the carmakers produce green vehicles and convert that into emergency loans.

___

Associated Press Writer Erica Werner contributed to this story.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008...-needed-votes/

The average person taking these polls have no idea how or if they would be affected unless they have a direct relationship, with the money being handed out lately in Washington to banks, insurance companies, investment firms etc. hard to argue against helping the automakers, 34 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to what has been spent already with no guarantee of return, we preach Capitalism all week until the markets close then we become Socialists and force feed money into banks with no strings attached and instead of increasing lending they use it for mergers and aquisitions, all done before the Asian and European markets open on Monday when we go back to Capitalism, wait till these people realize what happens in their communities when the tax base is decimated, take another pole then and see what it says, and for those who think a bankrupt big three somehow helps Toyota, they all share parts suppliers who can't afford to lose anyone right now, not a pretty picture.

I would say it wouldnt really help Toyota because with less people being employeed less people would have money to buy a new car. (remember a lot of people in America indirectly work for the BIG 3 or work for companies that work for the BIG 3)

Maybe valid points but who cares? You are talking about a population that thinks that what they see on SNL should shape their opinion. And it is lot scarier when you think about how people make up their minds picking the leader of the free world rather than to prop up a fundamentally flawed industry. Nobody is talking about GFC disappearing. If they go into bankruptcy they have to restructure not sell themselves off. I almost get tired of making that point as it has been made in so many threads already. But that is just a not a good enough deal for the auto companies and the UAW. Tough.

I've watched the semiconductor industry leave this country en masse and nobody lifted a finger. So thousands of well paying jobs and billions of investment left the country. Now I am expected to want to subsidize every Volt sold so retired UAW workers can have benefits I will never see. I agree with the 61%.

Congress can decide to prop them up or just let it go so Obama can walk in and solve it but Reid is pretty much saying he doesn't have the votes as of right now to get them a check. The hearings start tomorrow but as we all know from SNL, nobody watches CSPAN. If the boys from Detroit and Gettelfinger get it right this time, they get a check. If not, time for Plan B. And the politicians will have to live with the consequences of their decision.

Even though it involves auto companies, isn't this a political thread that would be more suited for the DEBATE forum?

i love this $1 salary bullshiet to try to get the gov't to loan them money.

even with the $1 salary, they still get yearly benefits totaling over $15million.

Exactly my point, who cares what a small group in a poll think when most have no clue how business is done, I have heard the chapter 11 point made by you and others, when you commit to buying from a bankrupt automaker then I'll listen, until then chapter 11 might as well be chapter 7 because no one will buy cars, as for the UAW deal there are not enough members left to even discuss, and for the wage/ benefit amount estimated at 70 dollars per hour out of control health care costs make up most of that, how about directing some energy towards that or show some outrage for funding Citigroup and others over the weekend or is that ok? Against bailing out one segment you should be against all. The politicians can be voted out of office but we will have to live with the fallout.