Nobody thinks the LS or ES feels anything like a BMW. However, we're thinking that if Lexus is beginning to stiffen it's suspensions, that it's only going to do so, more so, in the future. And that is what's worrying us.

Cadillac did the same thing. They went overboard with cold, hard plastic interiors and stiff suspensions. That worked okay for some people, but the media loved it. In the end, they went back to softer interiors and reworked the suspensions a bit.. Now, if you want a very firm ride, you buy a V-Series. Otherwise, you can have pretty-much the best of both worlds with their magnetic suspension.

If you read the magazines (online and off), you'd be under the impression that most of Lexus' customers want stiffer suspensions and sportier vehicles. That just isn't so. Lexus is where they are today for offering the most comfortable vehicles on the market. Cadillac did this years ago and when they stopped (started making smaller, less comfortable vehicles), they fell apart.

Lexus should pursue the luxury sport segment with the "F" line. They should leave the majority of sportiness there. And with cars like the IS and GS. They should leave "sport" out of the ES and LS. Like I mentioned earlier - you're either a smoker or you're not. Pick one, and be it.

 

Don't read the magazines, or don't pay attention to their opinions. Lexus has added a bit more sport to their regular models through direct input from current Lexus customers. Lexus did a lot of research and put a lot of thought into this decision. It also makes sense if Toyota wants younger buyers.

You're right, the F models will be for the hardcore enthusiasts, and I think the regular models will stay mostly as they are. I really don't see Lexus making the LS and ES more and more sporty. It doesn't make sense. The ES and LS are supposed to be about luxury above all else. The same thing with the SC, it's supposed to be about luxury above all else.

 

The enthusiast's automotive press (C&D, MT, R&T etc.) greeted the new gen ES350 with a collective yawn because the ride, steering and handling was too soft with little or no driver involvement. But consumers still bought it in record numbers, most likely because it was what they were looking for and met their needs and expectations. In this case the so-so press didn't hinder sales a bit.

On the other hand the consumer oriented mags and web sites (CR, Consumer Guide, Itelli Choice etc) have rated it highly. This just shows that from a consumer's standpoint the car has hit its target. I'm thinking that many of the people buying the ES are also looking for a soft riding, comfortable car.

The consumer/buyer has made the decision as to what they are looking for and what will be a successful car in the marketplace.

 

I'll be happy with a real UL package with reclining rear seats (the Camry XLE has it so why not the ES?), 3-zone climate control (the LS460 can keep the 4-zone), RSES (lots of midsized competitors have this option already) and massaging seats (not full-fledged like the LS460L, just LS430UL-style). I was disappointed when I first learned about the current UL package, which barely has anything that justifies its "Ultra Luxury" name. It really could use more goodies from the LS430UL.

 

LexBob2. I can't argue with that. But the press does have a way of manipulating opinions...

TRDFantasy.. If things stay the same, than I'll be more than satisfied.. I just have a feeling things may change to appease the automotive press and what "appears" to be mass public opinion.

In regards to the LS and it's softness (and the ES, I suppose) - one of it's selling points was that it had the softest ride.. It may still have the softest ride. But if one day it doesn't, I think sales will drop. People buy cars for many different reasons. The soft suspension in the LS is one of them. And since I believe more people are into softer suspensions than stiffer ones, I don't feel the sales will be made up by those wanting the sportier ride...

 

The ES sells because its a cheap luxury car. Why would jacking up the price $10k be better?

 

i would never pay that much for a fwd.

 

Most people don't know or care which wheels are powering their vehicles...

A vehicle moving upscale isn't unheard of by any means. The Cadillac CTS is doing it right now...

 

Im still trying to figure out what you would replace it with then, a Corolla type car?

The thing is, YOU and some others might like the softness, but what about future buyers? Are they going to like the same soft floaty feeling? As the generations grow older who enjoyed stiff riding, tight handling cars, the industry has to move with them IMO - that is the real market in the future, not the concerns of people right now.

Moving the ES further upscale I think would have detrimental affects on its sales, would it be THAT much better than a Camry to justify the already large price difference (~$19k base vs ~$33k base; ~$33k loaded vs ~$45k loaded). A $50k ES would really just not seem appealing... And an entry level Lexus Corolla based car would be laughable. I'd say if anything, going on your logic, Lexus should chop the ES line and just soften the GS a bit then, and add a Corolla, that is essentially what you are asking for.

 

Bring in a new model that's exactly the same as the ES and move the current ES up market. That's all.

The current ES is "almost" everything a lot of people would love in a higher priced car. Make it AS QUIET as the LS and AS soft-riding as the LS and there ya go. Now the LS can become more sporty without losing customers because now they can find what they used to love - in the ES.

Or, Lexus could just forget about ALL of this and keep give two options for the LS. One sporty - one not.

The whole reason for this discussion is/was because I foresee Lexus making the LS more Audi/BMW like than Mercedes like - which I feel is a mistake. If this never happens, than there's no need to worry. However, I see it happening - and I bet it will continue to happen.

In that event, I want a Lexus LS that's just like the outgoing model. Soft and non-sporty. There's nothing about the 2006 LS430 that's unsafe in regards to the suspension. It could handle 100 more horsepower just fine. I don't need to be riding on 19" wheels with no rubber and I don't need to do 65 up and down a ramp on the highway. I want a luxury car for what a luxury car is supposed to do. So do many other people.

Again, if Lexus doesn't plan on stiffening up the LS any further, than this whole discussion is moot. Let's see what happens...

 

I have to disagree. This is an area that Lexus marketers, unwisely, have ignored. For years, rival Acura has done quite well with 4-cylinder, Civic-sized or Civic-based cars like the Integra, RSX, and TSX (In fact, I just posted a TSX review today). Infiniti, likewise, sold the 4-cylinder, Sentra-based G20 for years. Audi also sells compact, 4-cylinder 2.0L A3's. Lexus has just decided they don't WANT a Corolla-based car, regardless of its sales potential.

 

Acura is 3rd tier luxury. Period.

 

It's still an upscale nameplate....as is Infiniti and Audi.

 

If I am not mistaken, the A4 shares it's chassis with the Passat, not the Jetta. And Infiniti does not have any FWD 4 cylinder cars that are smaller than the G35.

 

I was not referring to the A4, but the A3. Audi sells the A3 not only in other markets but the American market as well....the A3 is VW Rabbit/Golf/Jetta- based. You are correct that Infiniti no longer sells the G20 here in America...but it did, successfully, for years.

That was my original point. Other upscale/luxury manufacturers, including Acura, have sucessfully marketed entry-level 4-cylinder compacts. I see no reason Lexus can't. The Corolla XLE would be an excellent starting point for a basic platform...it already has a smoother ride than a number of other cars its size, and nice wood trim inside. Half of the development work is already done on it.....all it needs is some more interior/exterior plushness and trim.