The demise of the American-market BMW 318 and Benz 190/220/230/240 series had more to do with image rather than poor sales. People bought enough of those cars to keep them in production.....but company reps, in typical German auto-industry arrogance, either thought they knew more than the customers they were supposed to serve, or were not satisfied with the profits those cars brought in.

Then.....look what happened when BMW brought over the 4-cylinder hatchback Mini Cooper. BMW shops couldn't keep them in stock....there was a waiting list.

 

Do you really think the Mini is a fair comparison in this context, though? It's a unique, niche car. Plus--it weighs just a little more than a roller skate, so it wouldn't need extra hp from a V6, nor do they really need to push the 4's hp to the max.

 

Then again, Audi offers a 4 cylinder engine in the A4 although its a turbocharged one and I'd take an A4 FSI turbo Audi over the V6 version any day. I'd also take the RDX 4 cylinder turbo motor over the comparable base V6 engines that Acura produces as well. I think it just depends on the motor itself. Sometimes a 4 cylinder motor is better than the V6 offerings, but in most cases not.

 

Yes and no.......as you note, it depends on the context. You and I both know it is not a true BMW, but it is marketed by the company, and sold at the same dealerships. Some shoppers decide to go look at new BMW's, get sticker shock, decide they can't afford one, test-drive a Mini, and take one home instead.

And, while I am not a believer in the legitimacy of automotive stereotypes either (I speak against them day and night), it is a fact that the Mini, especially in the base non-supercharged and convertible versions, is extremely popular with women.....stereotype or not.

The point, as it gets back to the thread topic, is that I am not among those who believe that Lexus cannot market an American-market model below the IS or ES.

 

If BMW can sell the 1-Series in America.....

 

But BMW does not have a parent company that could sell lesser vehicles, so they are forced to sell the 1 series under the BMW name. But Lexus does not need to do that, they have Toyota.

Would you want Caddilac to sell a rebadged Cavaler?

 

Exactly. Plus it remains to be seen how well the 1 Series will do in North America.

 

It will most likely do well, but its not a premium car.

 

They need to bring the GS upscale and make the LS more expensive.

 

Why would you want that? No thanks, I wanna be able to afford LS600 some day.

 

I don't want that. I am just giving Lexus free unsolicited business advice
to have a more solid lineup

Also, if you suceed in being able to afford 115K for a fully loaded LS600hL
why not 125K? 10K shouldn't be making or breaking a sale at that price
point.

 

It doesn't have to be a Cavalier like the Cimarron was. There's a new entry-level coming in before the CTS and it's not going to be based on a Cavalier or anything like it.

If the LS gets any more expensive, people will consider the Mercedes S-Class much more seriously.

 

I didn't bother reading the whole thread, but I totally do not see how you made the connections you did.

The ES is Lexus' entry level car. If they moved it up, it would just be to like the E-class level. Kinda like the Caddy CTS. They could slide a car based on the Corolla in as the new entry level, kinda like BMW is planning on a smaller 1 series to be their new entry level car as the 3 series keeps growing larger and larger (and more expensive). However, unlike BMW, Toyota has to worry about cannibalizing Toyota sales so they may not want to have Lexus get too cheap in price. GM has no problems cannibalizing sales from their own divisions cuz they've been doing it for decades.

The LS has always been Toyota's shot at the S-class. They knew they had to build a reputation and respect first, so they always undercut the S-class price by a lot. How much closer they get in price is a business decision for Toyota to make, but the LS is always compared against the S-class. Both by consumers and the car industry. It'd be Toyota's dream if they could price the LS exactly like the S-class and have people buy it. That's always been their goal. To become a luxury icon like Mercedes. The ultimate dream/goal would be to surplant Mercedes as the luxury marque you think of when you say "luxury". I don't think they're quite there yet, but that's a business decision for Toyota to make. If Mercedes had kept up the massive quality problems they had, I think Toyota definitely would have made that move up within 10 years.

And there's nothing wrong with trying to be the best at everything. Technology helps make previously impossible things possible. I thought Lexus was smart to have the IS be sporty and the ES be luxurious. It differentiated Lexus from the pack at the area where most sales happen.

If you're being objective, the 3 series is the undisputed king of compact sport sedans. Previously, competitors tried to copy BMW, and discovered they couldn't match the balance btw sportiness and luxury ride that BMW has. So, they tended to up the value in their car to make up for the slight disadvantage they had in that sport/ride balance. Infiniti's G35 and Caddy's CTS are prolly the best right now in offering enough value in other areas to make up for not quite perfecting BMW's handling balance.

Lexus has always been known more for soft handling. Their history is in luxury. Kinda like the old Caddy cars that were like luxury boats. But unfortunately for Lexus, they don't have anything right now to pull parts from and make a sports sedan from easily. Caddy can just start pulling stuff from like the Corvette. Very cost effective. Plus, they have the old rep of being the standard of the world. Toyota recognized it had short comings so it decided not to play the game like everyone else and introed two different cars for the two purposes.

To use your analogy, they could see they didn't have a good Jeter possibility in their farm system. So, rather than try and field a poor man's Jeter like everyone else, they decided to have two SS's. One defensive ace (luxury - ES) and one offensive (sport - IS). Since the car game isn't baseball, they can have both in the market at the same time. I think it's a great strategy.

Sportiness is sexy in cars. BMW is the undisputed king of sports sedans. Since buyers want everything and BMW offers both sporty handling and luxurious ride, it makes everyone look at their own favorite marque and go "why can't I have both with my brand?" Most companies did try and be BMW. Lexus just chose not to play that game at the low end of the market. I think it's a wise choice since it's so crowded with so many BMW wannabes, they can get the most out of their financial investment in R&D by having the ES and IS. At the upper end, like the LS and S-class range, the profit margins are so huge but the sales numbers are so small, it might be worth it to try and up the sportiness of the LS. Those buyers are more used to getting everything they want and are willing to pay for it. More worth the R&D into trying to give the car everything cuz those customers have the cash to pay for it.

 

Now that's just throwing away money when you don't need to. Some people possibly are able to afford $125k cars because they didn't throw away $10k (add on to the cars price) when they didn't need to every time they bought a new car.