mmarshall - I believe
02-27-07, 08:04 AM
#16
EV ftw!!!
It is true that many SUV drivers lose it on slick roads because of overconfidence....I often see it myself. But given the average Subaru's Anti-SUV low center of gravity, carlike handling, and superb AWD system, and the fact that most of them come with good all-season tires, you've really got to have your head up your a** to get one screwed up. Unfortunately, some people DO.
For instance, I took my Outback, a couple of weeks ago, through 5 inches of solid SLEET, not snow, on the road...grainy ice pellets with almost no traction at all...and, as a careful and common-sense driver, still got where I was going with no real problem. Try that sometime with RWD or FWD...even with snow tires.
For instance, I took my Outback, a couple of weeks ago, through 5 inches of solid SLEET, not snow, on the road...grainy ice pellets with almost no traction at all...and, as a careful and common-sense driver, still got where I was going with no real problem. Try that sometime with RWD or FWD...even with snow tires.
This past weekend on Sunday we got over 6 inches of a combination of heavy snow and ice in Oakville. The car drove through all that like a champ.
I am sure the exact same car - Maxima with winter tires would have done even better, however I am still not convinced it is worth getting an AWD vehicle for the couple of times a year when the weather is really, really bad to justify it (read that as in 2 feet of snow and then I doubt an AWD vehicle would be able to get through that anyway unless it had a high enough ground clearance (over 2 feet high) from the body to the tarmac to not get stuck).
02-27-07, 10:39 AM
#17
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On my wifes Maxima we don't even have winter tires. We have always had excellent quality all-seasons and we have never ever been stuck in snow. Go figure.
This past weekend on Sunday we got over 6 inches of a combination of heavy snow and ice in Oakville. The car drove through all that like a champ.
This past weekend on Sunday we got over 6 inches of a combination of heavy snow and ice in Oakville. The car drove through all that like a champ.
But FWD is still FWD and AWD is still AWD....apples and oranges.
02-27-07, 08:02 PM
#18
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02-27-07, 08:32 PM
#19
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1. RWD '04 3-series with snow tires
2. FWD '91 Accord with (probably super crappy) all-seasons
3. 4WD '01 CR-V with all-seasons
4. AWD '03 E320 with all-seasons
5. RWD '06 S350 with all-seasons
I've had problems with each:
1. fishtailing while going up hills, while a minivan had no issues at all behind me
2. getting stuck while going up hills, likely due to snow/ice combo, but then every single car behind me had no issues where I got stuck
3. almost went off a curve while it was snowing really hard, but admittedly I may have been going about 10 mph too fast (was still going quite slow, however)
4. slid at low speed right turning out of a parking lot, but then no problems getting up a hill while an old Jimmy SUV was stuck / spinning its rear wheels trying to get up
5. fishtailed like crazy for 30 heart stopping seconds after hitting patches of black ice while on the highway
02-27-07, 08:34 PM
#20
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I never had trouble with my 330i (2WD) + snow tires in MN winters. It's nice having an extra 2 wheels worth of locomotion to help you get going, but the advantages of AWD end right there. The slipping and sliding is cured by slowing down and modulating your steering inputs more carefully, and the fishtailing is cured by modulating your throttle input more carefully.
Looks like you have a ZHP? With snow tires, and BMW's traction control system, you should have no issues getting through almost any reasonable scenario.
Looks like you have a ZHP? With snow tires, and BMW's traction control system, you should have no issues getting through almost any reasonable scenario.
Except for when I almost went off a curve in the CR-V, I don't think I've driven poorly at all. The fishtailing in the BMW up the hill was at very low speeds, while the minivan (probably FWD with all-seasons) behind me was completely stable at higher speeds.
02-27-07, 08:40 PM
#21
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What changed this winter to make you start fishtailing and sliding when you have been driving with RWD and all seasons all these years?
I've done 6 Toronto winters with a FWD Camry on all seasons and 1 Boston winter (admittedly it's only really snowed one time all winter) in a RWD GS400 with low profile 245/45/ZR17 all seasons and I haven't really ever felt the need for AWD (there have been times where I wished I had snow tires though). I think AWD is pretty overrated, and I'm not willing to sacrifice performance in the dry for the few days a year when there's snow on the ground. Then again, I'm the guy that's going to be trying to drive a new C6 Corvette in Boston year round. The only AWD cars I can see myself ever buying are maybe a Porsche Carrera 4/911 Turbo or a Lambo Gallardo or something.
I've done 6 Toronto winters with a FWD Camry on all seasons and 1 Boston winter (admittedly it's only really snowed one time all winter) in a RWD GS400 with low profile 245/45/ZR17 all seasons and I haven't really ever felt the need for AWD (there have been times where I wished I had snow tires though). I think AWD is pretty overrated, and I'm not willing to sacrifice performance in the dry for the few days a year when there's snow on the ground. Then again, I'm the guy that's going to be trying to drive a new C6 Corvette in Boston year round. The only AWD cars I can see myself ever buying are maybe a Porsche Carrera 4/911 Turbo or a Lambo Gallardo or something.
Or hey, who knows, maybe I really have gotten cocky from my lack of issues in previous years and so have been driving more recklessly. I don't think I have, but maybe I have subconsciously.
The AWD / 4WD vehicles I'd get would be the 535xiT, 911 Turbo, S550 4matic, and Range Rover, so I'm not particularly worried about lack of power / performance. Boston area gets plowed pretty quickly, so if you don't need to be out and about immediately and can afford to wait a few hours, you'd probably be okay in most any car as long as it's not equipped with summers...
02-27-07, 08:40 PM
#22
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Hi
I'm in the snow zone, not bad, but we have had 2 bad snow storms this winter. And I have a job where I have to be there come hell or high water.
I have got by with a FWD (Passat) with snow tires for 8 years. Well it's true I also have a Trooper (AWD) to get me there but 95% of the time the Passat was getting me to work.
Well I swear by snow tires (I have 3 sets of high performance winter tires for 3 of my 4 vehicles).
This year I traded the Passat for a Legacy wagon and got a whole new set of winter rubber (Dunlop Winter Sport).
I was out Sunday in the snow and it was prety bad (for other people) I saw people driving sideways and the rear of the car trying to pass the front.
But my Legacy (plus winter tires) was like a walk in the park. I drive slow and smooth in the snow, but this car takes a lot of sweat out of the driving.
I don't think it's 100% essential to have awd + snow (winter) tires but it sure is a releif to me.
I thik it's 20% driver 50% tires and 30% car (driving wheels).
The best driver with a Corvette on summer tires will be in a world of hurt on snow ice, a poor driver in an awd + snow tire car can also get into trouble but the tires and car do make a big difference.
I'm in the snow zone, not bad, but we have had 2 bad snow storms this winter. And I have a job where I have to be there come hell or high water.
I have got by with a FWD (Passat) with snow tires for 8 years. Well it's true I also have a Trooper (AWD) to get me there but 95% of the time the Passat was getting me to work.
Well I swear by snow tires (I have 3 sets of high performance winter tires for 3 of my 4 vehicles).
This year I traded the Passat for a Legacy wagon and got a whole new set of winter rubber (Dunlop Winter Sport).
I was out Sunday in the snow and it was prety bad (for other people) I saw people driving sideways and the rear of the car trying to pass the front.
But my Legacy (plus winter tires) was like a walk in the park. I drive slow and smooth in the snow, but this car takes a lot of sweat out of the driving.
I don't think it's 100% essential to have awd + snow (winter) tires but it sure is a releif to me.
I thik it's 20% driver 50% tires and 30% car (driving wheels).
The best driver with a Corvette on summer tires will be in a world of hurt on snow ice, a poor driver in an awd + snow tire car can also get into trouble but the tires and car do make a big difference.
02-27-07, 08:54 PM
#23
RWD plus snow tires just won't cut it in places where it snows more
than a few inches a year. Snow by itself is usually not a problem.
It's those days when you get a combination of snow, sleet, rain
and wildly oscillating temperatures followed by a deep freeze that
make the roads an absolute nightmare.
I've gotten stuck in both FWD and RWD cars and I know for a fact
an AWD car would not get stuck in those exact situations. I agree
AWD does not solve all problems like braking, and sliding, but it's
way safer than the other alternatives as long as you're not foolish
about how you're driving.
than a few inches a year. Snow by itself is usually not a problem.
It's those days when you get a combination of snow, sleet, rain
and wildly oscillating temperatures followed by a deep freeze that
make the roads an absolute nightmare.
I've gotten stuck in both FWD and RWD cars and I know for a fact
an AWD car would not get stuck in those exact situations. I agree
AWD does not solve all problems like braking, and sliding, but it's
way safer than the other alternatives as long as you're not foolish
about how you're driving.
02-27-07, 09:00 PM
#24
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The thing about my Trooper v my Legacy
The Trooper has about 10" of clearance and the Leg probably half that. I prefer the Legacy for any ice and light snow because it's lower center of gravity and weighs about 1500 lbs less so its easier to stop. But the Trooper will plow me thru a foot plus of snow.
I used to be so scared of driving in the snow, but now I don't mind it so much except for all the OP on the road.
I was driving on the highway in a bad ice/snow mix and it was dicey, but we were able to go about 40 mph if we keep in the snow ruts cleared by the big rig. But you can feel it's not 100%. But at the same time you don't want to take 3 hours to go 30 miles so you want to move a bit. Well there is this guy in front of me, it's a 3-lane HW but only one really good lane so its hard to pass. And I was keeping back about 10 car lengths, and he starts checking his brakes all of the sudden. I was like a-hole just ease up on the gas don't make me put on my brakes and we were going up hill at the time so I really don't want to stop/slow way down and then have to accelerate again.
The Trooper has about 10" of clearance and the Leg probably half that. I prefer the Legacy for any ice and light snow because it's lower center of gravity and weighs about 1500 lbs less so its easier to stop. But the Trooper will plow me thru a foot plus of snow.
I used to be so scared of driving in the snow, but now I don't mind it so much except for all the OP on the road.
I was driving on the highway in a bad ice/snow mix and it was dicey, but we were able to go about 40 mph if we keep in the snow ruts cleared by the big rig. But you can feel it's not 100%. But at the same time you don't want to take 3 hours to go 30 miles so you want to move a bit. Well there is this guy in front of me, it's a 3-lane HW but only one really good lane so its hard to pass. And I was keeping back about 10 car lengths, and he starts checking his brakes all of the sudden. I was like a-hole just ease up on the gas don't make me put on my brakes and we were going up hill at the time so I really don't want to stop/slow way down and then have to accelerate again.
02-27-07, 09:00 PM
#25
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RWD plus snow tires just won't cut it in places where it snows more
than a few inches a year. Snow by itself is usually not a problem.
It's those days when you get a combination of snow, sleet, rain
and wildly oscillating temperatures followed by a deep freeze that
make the roads an absolute nightmare.
I've gotten stuck in both FWD and RWD cars and I know for a fact
an AWD car would not get stuck in those exact situations. I agree
AWD does not solve all problems like braking, and sliding, but it's
way safer than the other alternatives as long as you're not foolish
about how you're driving.
than a few inches a year. Snow by itself is usually not a problem.
It's those days when you get a combination of snow, sleet, rain
and wildly oscillating temperatures followed by a deep freeze that
make the roads an absolute nightmare.
I've gotten stuck in both FWD and RWD cars and I know for a fact
an AWD car would not get stuck in those exact situations. I agree
AWD does not solve all problems like braking, and sliding, but it's
way safer than the other alternatives as long as you're not foolish
about how you're driving.
02-27-07, 09:01 PM
#26
are quite a few hilly roads around here...
02-27-07, 09:06 PM
#27
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The thing about my Trooper v my Legacy
The Trooper has about 10" of clearance and the Leg probably half that. I prefer the Legacy for any ice and light snow because it's lower center of gravity and weighs about 1500 lbs less so its easier to stop. But the Trooper will plow me thru a foot plus of snow.
I used to be so scared of driving in the snow, but now I don't mind it so much except for all the OP on the road.
I was driving on the highway in a bad ice/snow mix and it was dicey, but we were able to go about 40 mph if we keep in the snow ruts cleared by the big rig. But you can feel it's not 100%. But at the same time you don't want to take 3 hours to go 30 miles so you want to move a bit. Well there is this guy in front of me, it's a 3-lane HW but only one really good lane so its hard to pass. And I was keeping back about 10 car lengths, and he starts checking his brakes all of the sudden. I was like ***-hole just ease up un the gas don't make me put on my brakes (etc.) and we were going up hill at the time so I don't want to stop/slow way down.
The Trooper has about 10" of clearance and the Leg probably half that. I prefer the Legacy for any ice and light snow because it's lower center of gravity and weighs about 1500 lbs less so its easier to stop. But the Trooper will plow me thru a foot plus of snow.
I used to be so scared of driving in the snow, but now I don't mind it so much except for all the OP on the road.
I was driving on the highway in a bad ice/snow mix and it was dicey, but we were able to go about 40 mph if we keep in the snow ruts cleared by the big rig. But you can feel it's not 100%. But at the same time you don't want to take 3 hours to go 30 miles so you want to move a bit. Well there is this guy in front of me, it's a 3-lane HW but only one really good lane so its hard to pass. And I was keeping back about 10 car lengths, and he starts checking his brakes all of the sudden. I was like ***-hole just ease up un the gas don't make me put on my brakes (etc.) and we were going up hill at the time so I don't want to stop/slow way down.
I thought it was a bad idea to drive in others' tracks for fear that they'd have turned into ice?
02-28-07, 06:09 AM
#28
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A few thoughts come to mind:
1) Are your snow tires becoming worn out? Bridgestone, for instance, only uses the multi-cell compound in the top 50% (I believe it's 50) of the tread depth. Once you wear beyond that, not only do you have less tread available, but you're also down to normal tire compound, which isn't as effective as the multi-cell.
2) Your traction/stability control might need re-calibration. The '03 ZHP I had needed it during its first winter. Was fishtailing more than normal after a fresh snowfall. Dealer reprogrammed it, and everything was fine again. They'll do this under warranty.
Absolutely not true. Like I mentioned further up the thread, I drove my 330i (RWD) through several MN winters, where ice and deep snow are a very common occurance. It handled the conditions better than any FWD car (w/ all season tires) that I ever owned.
1) Are your snow tires becoming worn out? Bridgestone, for instance, only uses the multi-cell compound in the top 50% (I believe it's 50) of the tread depth. Once you wear beyond that, not only do you have less tread available, but you're also down to normal tire compound, which isn't as effective as the multi-cell.
2) Your traction/stability control might need re-calibration. The '03 ZHP I had needed it during its first winter. Was fishtailing more than normal after a fresh snowfall. Dealer reprogrammed it, and everything was fine again. They'll do this under warranty.
Originally Posted by marshmallo
RWD plus snow tires just won't cut it in places where it snows more
than a few inches a year.
than a few inches a year.
02-28-07, 06:17 AM
#29
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34 Years of MN was enough.
