mmarshall - I believe
 

Having gotten by just fine with RWD and all-season tires for many years just fine, I had pooh-poohed AWD for a while. RWD + snow tires was even better, as far as I was concerned. Well, two consecutive weeks of snowy/icy weather and resultant slipping and sliding, getting stuck, fishtailing up hills, and almost going off curves with FWD/all-seasons, 4WD/all-seasons, RWD/all-seasons, and RWD/snows has me a believer in the power of AWD. My future car plans include having at least one AWD car with snow tires in my stable from now on.

mmarshall :slap: me

BTW, after fishtailing through ice several times tonight while on the highway, let me, as a public service announcement, remind all of y'all that when you're skidding, you should remember two things: 1) look where you want to go, and 2) gentle changes in acceleration... :thumbup:

One thing you must remember though, AWD can help accelerating but it can't help stopping.

By the way, what cars do you currently own besides (I'm assuming) your 3 series sedan.

Don't worry, friend...I don't operate like that. :)

You have just found out why AWD cars and crossover vehicles are so popular today...especially in bad-weather areas. But remember.....AWD, alone, is not magic. You still have to drive with common sense. Short of studded tires ( outlawed in most areas ) and chains, on slippery surfaces it is unparalleled for start-up traction, stability, and, to an extent, for sure-grip cornering, but it won't necessarily help braking distances. In fact, because of AWD's generally greater weight than 2WD vehicles, all else equal, it may even INCREASE stopping distances a little.
And, of course, it won't overrule the laws of physics. Like traction control, ABS, and stability systems, it simply maximizes whatever traction from the tires IS available. Most car-based AWD systems simply shift the torque back and forth between the front, rear, and ( in the case of Acura's SH-AWD ) side wheels as traction runs out on each wheel.
This is why, even on AWD vehicles, tires can make a difference, traction-wise. On a high performance AWD vehicles primarily designed for dry pavement, like a Subaru STi or Mitsubishi Evo, the factory tires won't be particularly good in snow despite the AWD...they are not designed to channel water, snow, or grip on ice. Even on AWD vehicles, on slick surfaces, you are usually better off with either all-season tires or purpose-designed snow tires.
(This is why most Subarus come from the factory with standard all-season tires)
Also, if you are considering an AWD vehicle, no matter what kind of tires you have, you have to treat them differently than a FWD or RWD vehicle. You cannot mix different tires front and rear, or even new and worn examples of the SAME tire front and rear. The reason for this is not just steering and handling concerns, like with FWD or RWD cars, but to have the outside rolling diameter of the four tires exactly ( or close to exactly ) the same on all four wheels so the center differential is not always churning away balancing out the rotation speed differences.....creating heat and wear and possibly shortening its life. You also sometimes have to do special procedures when using the temporary spare tires for a flat.....Subaru supplies a fuse-puller to disengage AWD for that.
And last, AWD traction is not a free lunch. All else equal, its increased weight and drag over FWD and RWD vehicles usually means lower gas mileage and slower acceleration...although the STi and Evo have so much turbo power that they run like stink even with AWD.

Even with its power-robbing and gas-mileage penalties, I myself am sold on AWD. Unless I move to the Sun Belt or just stop driving in bad weather, I think I will have an AWD vehicle from now on. It helps even in the rain...you don't have to be on snow or ice to notice its benefits either.

And you don't have to spend a fortune to get good AWD either.
Every fall I do a CL thread on what I consider the best buys in inexpensive AWD cars for people on a budget.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...+snow+vehicles


This winter, as always, the Subaru Impreza ranked very high, but it was, IMO, edged out for first place by the new Suzuki SX4 ( see my SX4 review ).

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...uki+sx4+review


Imprezas start at 18-19K; the SX4, with standard AWD, starts at 15-16K....and unlike Subies, has a dash-mounted rotary switch that switches from gas-saving FWD ( when high traction is not needed ) to auto AWD to AWD lock for tough conditions.

If you DO have money, though, to spend on an AWD car, check out the Acura RL. It runs 50K list, but, IMO it is the best AWD sedan I've seen yet, though the Lexus GS 300/350 AWD comes close.

AWD may the best thing since sliced bread for some people, but remember that AWD only helps you when accelerating.

It has absolutely zero effect when you are negotiating that slippery turn or trying to stop on ice. What matters more in those two very important conditions are your tires.

One important downside to AWD vehicles that most people overlook is the resulting careless attitude that drivers develop when driving such vehicles and assume that their car is invincible. I have seen so many Subies and SUVs stuck on the side of the road because the drivers did not exercise proper caution when driving and assumed that their AWD vehicles could defy physics.

I never had trouble with my 330i (2WD) + snow tires in MN winters. It's nice having an extra 2 wheels worth of locomotion to help you get going, but the advantages of AWD end right there. The slipping and sliding is cured by slowing down and modulating your steering inputs more carefully, and the fishtailing is cured by modulating your throttle input more carefully.

Looks like you have a ZHP? With snow tires, and BMW's traction control system, you should have no issues getting through almost any reasonable scenario.

Oh, I agree 100%, I've see so many SUV drivers in NYC drive like complete idiots. They tailgate, cut people off just like they would in normal driving conditions. The funniest thing I've seen is when a Grand Cherokee cut a small car off, trying to race for a parking spot, and plowed right into a pile of snow. Little detail - burried inside the pile of snow was a fire hydrant.

It has some beneficial effect on slippery turns, because the engine torque in many cases is spread out to all four wheels, not just two drive wheels, thereby lessening the tendency of any one of the four to lose traction. You are correct, however, that it will not shorten stopping distances....for reasons that I explained in my first post.

It is true that many SUV drivers lose it on slick roads because of overconfidence....I often see it myself. But given the average Subaru's Anti-SUV low center of gravity, carlike handling, and superb AWD system, and the fact that most of them come with good all-season tires, you've really got to have your head up your a** to get one screwed up. Unfortunately, some people DO.

For instance, I took my Outback, a couple of weeks ago, through 5 inches of solid SLEET, not snow, on the road...grainy ice pellets with almost no traction at all...and, as a careful and common-sense driver, still got where I was going with no real problem. Try that sometime with RWD or FWD...even with snow tires.

What changed this winter to make you start fishtailing and sliding when you have been driving with RWD and all seasons all these years?

I've done 6 Toronto winters with a FWD Camry on all seasons and 1 Boston winter (admittedly it's only really snowed one time all winter) in a RWD GS400 with low profile 245/45/ZR17 all seasons and I haven't really ever felt the need for AWD (there have been times where I wished I had snow tires though). I think AWD is pretty overrated, and I'm not willing to sacrifice performance in the dry for the few days a year when there's snow on the ground. Then again, I'm the guy that's going to be trying to drive a new C6 Corvette in Boston year round. The only AWD cars I can see myself ever buying are maybe a Porsche Carrera 4/911 Turbo or a Lambo Gallardo or something.

There is almost nothing on a Corvette suited for snowy or icy roads outside of the ABS, traction/stability control, and fiberglass body that doesn't rust from salt. It is one of the worst winter vehicles in production today.

If you are going to try and drive a 'Vette in those conditions, at least put chains on all four tires. Without them, on slick surfaces, those ultra low-profile, ultra-wide, dry-pavement tires, combined with several hundered ft.-lbs. of torque, even at low throttle, are a joke. Not long ago, an NFL player ( forgot his name ) killed himself test-driving a 'Vette on snow.

Listen, friend.....I'm not trying to be rude or arrogant:) ...I just don't want to see you hurt yourself or an expensive sports car in conditions it was not designed for.

I appreciate the advice. You're one of the few people on here that care/talk about a car's safety, which is something young guys like me don't really think about too often. Your perspective is definitely appreciated.

I can afford to pay for the Vette, but I don't have a parking space for a 2nd car, and buying and insuring a 2nd car (even a $500 beater) would be a pretty big stretch. I'm thinking about either trying to find a set of snow tires that would fit (I'm not even sure if there are any) or just parking the car in the snow, if next winter is anything like this winter, that means I'll have to take public transportation to work or carpool 2 days out of the year, which is well worth it to be able to drive a 400hp beast for the other 363 days.

Hi

I'm in the snow zone, not bad, but we have had 2 bad snow storms this winter. And I have a job where I have to be there come hell or high water.

I have got by with a FWD (Passat) with snow tires for 8 years. Well it's true I also have a Trooper (AWD) to get me there but 95% of the time the Passat was getting me to work.

Well I swear by snow tires (I have 3 sets of high performance winter tires for 3 of my 4 vehicles).

This year I traded the Passat for a Legacy wagon and got a whole new set of winter rubber (Dunlop Winter Sport).

I was out Sunday in the snow and it was prety bad (for other people) I saw people driving sideways and the rear of the car trying to pass the front.

But my Legacy (plus winter tires) was like a walk in the park. I drive slow and smooth in the snow, but this car takes a lot of sweat out of the driving.

I don't think it's 100% essential to have awd + snow (winter) tires but it sure is a releif to me.

I thik it's 20% driver 50% tires and 30% car (driving wheels).

The best driver with a Corvette on summer tires will be in a world of hurt on snow ice, a poor driver in an awd + snow tire car can also get into trouble but the tires and car do make a big difference.

Haha. I don't even think my Vette has seen rain, nevermind snow. Enjoy, bust most of all be safe.

If I lived in an area with significant ice or snow, or even frequent rain, I'd get a vehicle with AWD.

We've owned a Subaru Legacy (AWD) and an RX300 (AWD), and both were WONDERFUL in foul weather.

HIGHLY recommended.

there is a guy up here who has been driving his C6 all winter long, he had a C5 before that he used to drive all year long too.