Is This The Same Car Company?
12-24-06, 09:36 AM
#1
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Is This The Same Car Company?
I just stolled over to the ES350 Forum to see how those cars are doing and I can't believe the same company is producing that car and the LS460. Page after page of multiple complaints, many saying that the 2007 ES350 is "the worst Lexus ever produced." Most of the complaints revolve around Transmission shift flaring (hesitation), Cold engine start noise, Wind noise, and Interior rattles (according to a recent and ongoing poll on that forum). The most prevalent problem seems to be the transmission hesitation problems that the ES300/350 have had in the past several years and that they can't seem to resolve, even with a new re-designed transmission for the 2007 model year. What disturbs me even more are the multifple complaints about a non-responsive Lexus Customer Service Department and dealer service departments and Service Advisors that excell in BS and ignoring customer complaints. Then I come to the LS460 Forums and see very few complaints, and many of them are minor. I have been a Lexus LS430 owner for 2 years now and I love the car....I have had ZERO problems or complaints. It's just hard to believe that the same company that produced my car and the LS460 is also producing the ES350. The difference in ownership experience is dramatic. Why can't a company that produces such fine cars as the LS430/460 produce an ES350 that reflects the same quality?
12-24-06, 10:56 AM
#2
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I just stolled over to the ES350 Forum to see how those cars are doing and I can't believe the same company is producing that car and the LS460. Page after page of multiple complaints, many saying that the 2007 ES350 is "the worst Lexus ever produced." Most of the complaints revolve around Transmission shift flaring (hesitation), Cold engine start noise, Wind noise, and Interior rattles (according to a recent and ongoing poll on that forum).
The most prevalent problem seems to be the transmission hesitation problems that the ES300/350 have had in the past several years and that they can't seem to resolve, even with a new re-designed transmission for the 2007 model year.
I honestly think Nissan is onto something moving more and models to CVT.
What disturbs me even more are the multifple complaints about a non-responsive Lexus Customer Service Department and dealer service departments and Service Advisors that excell in BS and ignoring customer complaints.
Then I come to the LS460 Forums and see very few complaints, and many of them are minor. I have been a Lexus LS430 owner for 2 years now and I love the car....I have had ZERO problems or complaints. It's just hard to believe that the same company that produced my car and the LS460 is also producing the ES350. The difference in ownership experience is dramatic. Why can't a company that produces such fine cars as the LS430/460 produce an ES350 that reflects the same quality?
12-24-06, 12:49 PM
#3
The transmission on my ES330 is OK. There is a minor feeling of being held back on some, more spirited starts from a dead stop. The GX transmission is absolutely, positively perfect. On the LS460, initially, a once in a while hesitation was present but that seems to be going away now. I did get a call from Lexus corporate a few weeks ago asking for responses on the new purchase. The hesitation was mentioned to that person who assured me it would be forwarded. But, who knows where that might be ? 
12-24-06, 02:51 PM
#4
I just stolled over to the ES350 Forum to see how those cars are doing and I can't believe the same company is producing that car and the LS460. Page after page of multiple complaints, many saying that the 2007 ES350 is "the worst Lexus ever produced." Most of the complaints revolve around Transmission shift flaring (hesitation), Cold engine start noise, Wind noise, and Interior rattles (according to a recent and ongoing poll on that forum). The most prevalent problem seems to be the transmission hesitation problems that the ES300/350 have had in the past several years and that they can't seem to resolve, even with a new re-designed transmission for the 2007 model year. What disturbs me even more are the multifple complaints about a non-responsive Lexus Customer Service Department and dealer service departments and Service Advisors that excell in BS and ignoring customer complaints. Then I come to the LS460 Forums and see very few complaints, and many of them are minor. I have been a Lexus LS430 owner for 2 years now and I love the car....I have had ZERO problems or complaints. It's just hard to believe that the same company that produced my car and the LS460 is also producing the ES350. The difference in ownership experience is dramatic. Why can't a company that produces such fine cars as the LS430/460 produce an ES350 that reflects the same quality?
But at the same time, most of the issues and threads there and ond edmunds are posted by same people, over and over... There are quite few ppl there who posted that they love their new ES as well...
12-24-06, 03:04 PM
#5
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I think it is Toyota growing pains. As they become #1 in sales in the U.S. I think it will get worse before it gets better. They are heading down the same path as GM.
GM has three levels
High end = Cadillac
Medium = Buick
Low = Chevy
Toyota
High end = Lexus
Medium = Toyota
Low end = Scion
I do not believe you can be a large company and maintain quality at every level. The LS460 has done well, but there is a $20k premium on the car. Toyota wants to be #1 so bad that quality is suffering. The Lexus built today are some of the best cars compared to the industry, however, they are not the same cars as a few years ago.
Infiniti and Acura gave up when they hit financial and sales pressures. They threw in the towel and now the are heavily sharing parts/chassis across all car lines. The same thing is happening with Lexus with the exception of the GS/LS. So if Toyota has an issue with a part in a Camry, I expect the same issue to be occur in some Lexus models as well.
The next few years will be interesting for Toyota. It will be very difficult to be #1 and maintain consistency.
One thing they are doing wrong is coming out with the IS/ES/GS/LS all about the same time. Too many models to handle for new production release. BMW for example spreads them out, 7,6,5,3 a year or two apart. This ensures BMW press coverage on a consistent basis. Lexus released all the sedan models at about the same time. The trouble is the excitement wears off quickly and issues with first model cars is exacerbated by having all new models.
Lexus hinges on Toyota.
"Toyota has been plagued with a rising number of recalls as it standardizes parts (edit: becomes GM like) to cut costs and develops more vehicles at a faster pace. Its challenge is to maintain its reputation for quality cars and customer satisfaction as it continues to rev up production."
http://www.mcall.com/business/local/...inesslocal-hed
GM has three levels
High end = Cadillac
Medium = Buick
Low = Chevy
Toyota
High end = Lexus
Medium = Toyota
Low end = Scion
I do not believe you can be a large company and maintain quality at every level. The LS460 has done well, but there is a $20k premium on the car. Toyota wants to be #1 so bad that quality is suffering. The Lexus built today are some of the best cars compared to the industry, however, they are not the same cars as a few years ago.
Infiniti and Acura gave up when they hit financial and sales pressures. They threw in the towel and now the are heavily sharing parts/chassis across all car lines. The same thing is happening with Lexus with the exception of the GS/LS. So if Toyota has an issue with a part in a Camry, I expect the same issue to be occur in some Lexus models as well.
The next few years will be interesting for Toyota. It will be very difficult to be #1 and maintain consistency.
One thing they are doing wrong is coming out with the IS/ES/GS/LS all about the same time. Too many models to handle for new production release. BMW for example spreads them out, 7,6,5,3 a year or two apart. This ensures BMW press coverage on a consistent basis. Lexus released all the sedan models at about the same time. The trouble is the excitement wears off quickly and issues with first model cars is exacerbated by having all new models.
Lexus hinges on Toyota.
"Toyota has been plagued with a rising number of recalls as it standardizes parts (edit: becomes GM like) to cut costs and develops more vehicles at a faster pace. Its challenge is to maintain its reputation for quality cars and customer satisfaction as it continues to rev up production."
http://www.mcall.com/business/local/...inesslocal-hed
Last edited by sdbrandon; 12-24-06 at 03:25 PM.
12-24-06, 04:24 PM
#6
I think it is Toyota growing pains. As they become #1 in sales in the U.S. I think it will get worse before it gets better. They are heading down the same path as GM.
GM has three levels
High end = Cadillac
Medium = Buick
Low = Chevy
Toyota
High end = Lexus
Medium = Toyota
Low end = Scion
I do not believe you can be a large company and maintain quality at every level. The LS460 has done well, but there is a $20k premium on the car. Toyota wants to be #1 so bad that quality is suffering. The Lexus built today are some of the best cars compared to the industry, however, they are not the same cars as a few years ago.
Infiniti and Acura gave up when they hit financial and sales pressures. They threw in the towel and now the are heavily sharing parts/chassis across all car lines. The same thing is happening with Lexus with the exception of the GS/LS. So if Toyota has an issue with a part in a Camry, I expect the same issue to be occur in some Lexus models as well.
The next few years will be interesting for Toyota. It will be very difficult to be #1 and maintain consistency.
One thing they are doing wrong is coming out with the IS/ES/GS/LS all about the same time. Too many models to handle for new production release. BMW for example spreads them out, 7,6,5,3 a year or two apart. This ensures BMW press coverage on a consistent basis. Lexus released all the sedan models at about the same time. The trouble is the excitement wears off quickly and issues with first model cars is exacerbated by having all new models.
Lexus hinges on Toyota.
"Toyota has been plagued with a rising number of recalls as it standardizes parts (edit: becomes GM like) to cut costs and develops more vehicles at a faster pace. Its challenge is to maintain its reputation for quality cars and customer satisfaction as it continues to rev up production."
http://www.mcall.com/business/local/...inesslocal-hed
GM has three levels
High end = Cadillac
Medium = Buick
Low = Chevy
Toyota
High end = Lexus
Medium = Toyota
Low end = Scion
I do not believe you can be a large company and maintain quality at every level. The LS460 has done well, but there is a $20k premium on the car. Toyota wants to be #1 so bad that quality is suffering. The Lexus built today are some of the best cars compared to the industry, however, they are not the same cars as a few years ago.
Infiniti and Acura gave up when they hit financial and sales pressures. They threw in the towel and now the are heavily sharing parts/chassis across all car lines. The same thing is happening with Lexus with the exception of the GS/LS. So if Toyota has an issue with a part in a Camry, I expect the same issue to be occur in some Lexus models as well.
The next few years will be interesting for Toyota. It will be very difficult to be #1 and maintain consistency.
One thing they are doing wrong is coming out with the IS/ES/GS/LS all about the same time. Too many models to handle for new production release. BMW for example spreads them out, 7,6,5,3 a year or two apart. This ensures BMW press coverage on a consistent basis. Lexus released all the sedan models at about the same time. The trouble is the excitement wears off quickly and issues with first model cars is exacerbated by having all new models.
Lexus hinges on Toyota.
"Toyota has been plagued with a rising number of recalls as it standardizes parts (edit: becomes GM like) to cut costs and develops more vehicles at a faster pace. Its challenge is to maintain its reputation for quality cars and customer satisfaction as it continues to rev up production."
http://www.mcall.com/business/local/...inesslocal-hed
Toyota's dark ages were from 2000-2004, it is just that at that point, Internet coverage wasnt as strong.
Going back to ES, except for transmission quirks reported by few owners, seems fine to me. These people do expect LS quality from ES, which is probably #1 problem (ie complaining about 3/16 of an inch "door mis-aligment").
Reason that Toyota is at TOP, is that they do care, and their #1 priority is quality and not sales. I know that from first person experience, as we have 3x more service workshops than sales trainings, and level of manufacturer support can not be remotly compared to another major brand we also work with.
Thats the main reason Toyota is doing well, most important thing to them is quality and good service to customers.
12-24-06, 04:32 PM
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Scion has nothing to do with Chevy... so I guess since both Toyota and GM have distinctive luxury brands, they are going down the same path? :-).
Toyota's dark ages were from 2000-2004, it is just that at that point, Internet coverage wasnt as strong.
Going back to ES, except for transmission quirks reported by few owners, seems fine to me. These people do expect LS quality from ES, which is probably #1 problem (ie complaining about 3/16 of an inch "door mis-aligment").
Reason that Toyota is at TOP, is that they do care, and their #1 priority is quality and not sales. I know that from first person experience, as we have 3x more service workshops than sales trainings, and level of manufacturer support can not be remotly compared to another major brand we also work with.
Thats the main reason Toyota is doing well, most important thing to them is quality and good service to customers.
Toyota's dark ages were from 2000-2004, it is just that at that point, Internet coverage wasnt as strong.
Going back to ES, except for transmission quirks reported by few owners, seems fine to me. These people do expect LS quality from ES, which is probably #1 problem (ie complaining about 3/16 of an inch "door mis-aligment").
Reason that Toyota is at TOP, is that they do care, and their #1 priority is quality and not sales. I know that from first person experience, as we have 3x more service workshops than sales trainings, and level of manufacturer support can not be remotly compared to another major brand we also work with.
Thats the main reason Toyota is doing well, most important thing to them is quality and good service to customers.
As far as the issues with Toyota/ES350, etc. I have heard as many positive stories as negative. For example, my neighbor's Camry was bought back and replaced with no hassle or issues. His new Camry is fine. I think Toyota will do whatever it takes to achieve #1 dominance and still maintain quality. There will just be a few bumps in the road.
I am still waiting for the IS-F , or for that matter a performance line from Lexus. They just need a a few more coupe offerings and some performance oriented models. I am sure they will get there.
Overall, I think it is an awesome time to be a consumer. The competition is hot, the features are amazing, and in the end the consumer will win.
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12-24-06, 04:44 PM
#8
I agree. I have no doubt if anyone can pull this off it is Toyota. I did not mean Scion was a Chevy but was just illustrating the tiers. The Scion is an excellent value car and they deserve much credit.
As far as the issues with Toyota/ES350, etc. I have heard as many positive stories as negative. For example, my neighbor's Camry was bought back and replaced with no hassle or issues. His new Camry is fine. I think Toyota will do whatever it takes to achieve #1 dominance and still maintain quality. There will just be a few bumps in the road.
I am still waiting for the IS-F , or for that matter a performance line from Lexus. They just need a a few more coupe offerings and some performance oriented models. I am sure they will get there.
Overall, I think it is an awesome time to be a consumer. The competition is hot, the features are amazing, and in the end the consumer will win.
As far as the issues with Toyota/ES350, etc. I have heard as many positive stories as negative. For example, my neighbor's Camry was bought back and replaced with no hassle or issues. His new Camry is fine. I think Toyota will do whatever it takes to achieve #1 dominance and still maintain quality. There will just be a few bumps in the road.
I am still waiting for the IS-F , or for that matter a performance line from Lexus. They just need a a few more coupe offerings and some performance oriented models. I am sure they will get there.
Overall, I think it is an awesome time to be a consumer. The competition is hot, the features are amazing, and in the end the consumer will win.
In general, when it comes to handling warranty stuff, they go beyond to satisfy. That is my experience with Toyota in Europe, from reading around, it seems to be even better than that in US.
It is just that their #1 priority is quality and happy customers. This is what our service and techs learn on all of their workshops that are mandatory for them to take.
2000-2004 cars had a lot more problems on average though. Stuff like mentioned in ES forums wouldnt get complaints before 5-6 years.
Nothing is perfect though, and I am sure that some dealers might be pain to work with, but thats definetly not Toyota's policy.
12-24-06, 04:54 PM
#9
p.s. additionally, new cars have much better build quality than before... New Yaris is an Lexus compared to old one... Rav4, while not as amazing advance as Yaris, has 0 creaks and noises (lets not mention the old one)...
This never gets mentioned in press, in fact, opposite gets mentioned, and it is really not true. Check Clio, Punto and old yaris, and you wouldnt be able to close at least one of the doors in every example you tried... New Yaris, almost perfect.
It is just that people complain a lot more these days than in 1999, so it gives you impression as if the quality is going down, while it is exactly opposite.
This never gets mentioned in press, in fact, opposite gets mentioned, and it is really not true. Check Clio, Punto and old yaris, and you wouldnt be able to close at least one of the doors in every example you tried... New Yaris, almost perfect.
It is just that people complain a lot more these days than in 1999, so it gives you impression as if the quality is going down, while it is exactly opposite.
12-24-06, 07:06 PM
#10
Something needs to be clarified here. It's not just a few owners who are complaining about the transmission flare. The problem is very widespread, and not just on the ES350 forum, but at the dealerships as well. I was just at my dealership on Friday talking to the head technician, and he told me, and I'll quote, that "customers are coming in for service in droves" to address the transmission flare. I'm sure Lexus will fix the problem at some point, but they have not as of yet.
I don't own an ES350. I have no stake in whether the car does or does not have problems. I am just an interested bystander. I have owned a 99 ES300, a 98 GS400, and currently a 99 GS400, and other than a few squeeks and ratlles, all 3 cars have been incredible in terms of reliability, comfort, luxury, performance, value, etc. The new ES350 has some serious recurring problems that Lexus needs to address, and they need to address this issues quickly because they are losing some customers as a result. In fact, just the other day, I was talking to a salesman friend at my dealership, and he specifically told me that he has had several well-informed potential ES350 customers walk in the door who are aware of the problems being reported back in the service department and on the Internet.
So please, don't say that the ES350 issues are just the ravings of a few crazed rogue disgruntled ES350 owners who have nothing better to do with their time other than complain about the same issues over and over again in an Internet chat room. People, the problems are recurring and widespread, and as more information circulates around the Internet and elsewhere, I'm sure we'll all know the full extent of the problems in the near future.
I don't own an ES350. I have no stake in whether the car does or does not have problems. I am just an interested bystander. I have owned a 99 ES300, a 98 GS400, and currently a 99 GS400, and other than a few squeeks and ratlles, all 3 cars have been incredible in terms of reliability, comfort, luxury, performance, value, etc. The new ES350 has some serious recurring problems that Lexus needs to address, and they need to address this issues quickly because they are losing some customers as a result. In fact, just the other day, I was talking to a salesman friend at my dealership, and he specifically told me that he has had several well-informed potential ES350 customers walk in the door who are aware of the problems being reported back in the service department and on the Internet.
So please, don't say that the ES350 issues are just the ravings of a few crazed rogue disgruntled ES350 owners who have nothing better to do with their time other than complain about the same issues over and over again in an Internet chat room. People, the problems are recurring and widespread, and as more information circulates around the Internet and elsewhere, I'm sure we'll all know the full extent of the problems in the near future.
12-24-06, 08:21 PM
#11
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Feedback from an actual ES350 owner:
I have an ES350. My car is fully loaded with Nav/ML and ultra package with the panoramic sunroof and semi-aniline seats. I really love my car except for the transmission flare. Because of my problem, Lexus corp will buy back my ES350. I have a tough decision....Pick another ES350 and hope my new car doesn't have this problem or purchase the LS460 for an additional $30K that I never initially intended to spend?
Yes, I love the ES350 and would take another one without another thought IF I had faith that the transmission issue was actually solved. Oh well... If I choose another ES350, hopefully they will buy it back again if it also has the same transmission problem.
I have an ES350. My car is fully loaded with Nav/ML and ultra package with the panoramic sunroof and semi-aniline seats. I really love my car except for the transmission flare. Because of my problem, Lexus corp will buy back my ES350. I have a tough decision....Pick another ES350 and hope my new car doesn't have this problem or purchase the LS460 for an additional $30K that I never initially intended to spend?
Yes, I love the ES350 and would take another one without another thought IF I had faith that the transmission issue was actually solved. Oh well... If I choose another ES350, hopefully they will buy it back again if it also has the same transmission problem.
12-24-06, 08:23 PM
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First year problems? Even Lexus isn't immune. The 2nd gen GS had a number of problems in the first year (98) that were fixed in later years. The ES350 is based off the Camry which is a platform that was probably under a LOT of pressure to be produced fairly quickly. The new LS on the other hand was under development for 6 years I read! Loads of time to test the crap out of it.
Lexus transmissions all seem to have this problem - there's complaints about it with every model. My bet is Lexus has programmed the tranny much more for high gear / low rpm priority over responsiveness. It seems like it won't downshift until it's decided "oh you really DO want to go right now, I thought you might change your mind. ok, now I'll downshift". I honestly think Nissan is onto something moving more and models to CVT.
Well the reason is probably that they can't do anything about the problems! After saying "it's normal" to the customer they're probably on the phone to an area rep or corporate saying "dammit that's the 4th person that's come in complaining about this, this week!"
See above.
Lexus transmissions all seem to have this problem - there's complaints about it with every model. My bet is Lexus has programmed the tranny much more for high gear / low rpm priority over responsiveness. It seems like it won't downshift until it's decided "oh you really DO want to go right now, I thought you might change your mind. ok, now I'll downshift".
I honestly think Nissan is onto something moving more and models to CVT.Well the reason is probably that they can't do anything about the problems! After saying "it's normal" to the customer they're probably on the phone to an area rep or corporate saying "dammit that's the 4th person that's come in complaining about this, this week!"
See above.
12-25-06, 09:11 AM
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Feedback from an actual ES350 owner:
I have an ES350. My car is fully loaded with Nav/ML and ultra package with the panoramic sunroof and semi-aniline seats. I really love my car except for the transmission flare. Because of my problem, Lexus corp will buy back my ES350. I have a tough decision....Pick another ES350 and hope my new car doesn't have this problem or purchase the LS460 for an additional $30K that I never initially intended to spend?
Yes, I love the ES350 and would take another one without another thought IF I had faith that the transmission issue was actually solved. Oh well... If I choose another ES350, hopefully they will buy it back again if it also has the same transmission problem.
I have an ES350. My car is fully loaded with Nav/ML and ultra package with the panoramic sunroof and semi-aniline seats. I really love my car except for the transmission flare. Because of my problem, Lexus corp will buy back my ES350. I have a tough decision....Pick another ES350 and hope my new car doesn't have this problem or purchase the LS460 for an additional $30K that I never initially intended to spend?
Yes, I love the ES350 and would take another one without another thought IF I had faith that the transmission issue was actually solved. Oh well... If I choose another ES350, hopefully they will buy it back again if it also has the same transmission problem.
If Lexus cannot do simple process elimination, I would opt for a GS or lease a BMW for two years and then check back. I will take a little less reliability for a good driving car. The LS is not for me and some folks have complained about the tranny there as well. There is nothing wrong with the LS tranny from what I have seen, just folks do not like the shift program, they say it is annoying. If you are mainly a Lexus driver, you might not be bothered by the tranny as you get used to it.
Last edited by sdbrandon; 12-25-06 at 09:23 AM.
12-25-06, 10:10 AM
#14
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Oh dear lord, the ES 350 band of brothers are spreading to other forums......
Lexus is not perfect, the 350 has a tranny issue but its not a giant issue. The giant issue is 4 or 5 people repeating the same things in every single thread they post in. That is the issue.
Their posts are flaring up
As for the LS 460, Lexus really spared no expense on this car, it is the grandest Japanese luxury car ever made.
It does lead me to think, maybe some top previous ES engineers went to the LS program instead.
Lexus is not perfect, the 350 has a tranny issue but its not a giant issue. The giant issue is 4 or 5 people repeating the same things in every single thread they post in. That is the issue.
Their posts are flaring up
As for the LS 460, Lexus really spared no expense on this car, it is the grandest Japanese luxury car ever made.
It does lead me to think, maybe some top previous ES engineers went to the LS program instead.
12-25-06, 11:35 AM
#15
Oh dear lord, the ES 350 band of brothers are spreading to other forums......
Lexus is not perfect, the 350 has a tranny issue but its not a giant issue. The giant issue is 4 or 5 people repeating the same things in every single thread they post in. That is the issue.
Their posts are flaring up
Lexus is not perfect, the 350 has a tranny issue but its not a giant issue. The giant issue is 4 or 5 people repeating the same things in every single thread they post in. That is the issue.
Their posts are flaring up