car is so full of win

i'd take it with any engine.

 

I'll take one of each.

 

Exactly what I think!

 

1st Drive: 2012 Porsche Panamera S Hybrid

I had been anticipating the pre-dawn run to the airport for a few days. Having spent the week with a Porsche Panamera Turbo, complete with the torque-boosting Sport Chrono pack (yes, that 1), the blast to SFO was a fitting sendoff. It was also perfectly timed.

I was boarding a marathon flight to Austria for the global launch of the Panamera S Hybrid, and after seven days with the Turbo, I was smitten. And concerned.

While the 500 horsepower and 568 pound-feet of torque from the boosted V8 proved the old adage about absolute power corrupting absolutely, it was the completeness of the Panamera package that left me slack-jawed. When the Stuttgart brain-trust puts its mind to something, they do it right. Look no further than half a century of rear-engined evolution and the much-maligned, but incredibly capable Cayenne. Now add the Panamera to that list. Its sheetmetal might not suit your tastes, but Porsche managed to create the best driving luxury sedan on the market. But a hybrid? They'd better not screw this up.

Porsche is calling this the world's fastest production hybrid and the most economical Porker of all time. With a 0-60 mph time of 5.7 seconds and a top speed of 168 mph, Porsche nailed the numbers for quick and fast. But with a starting price of $95,000, the "economical" claim is tough to swallow.

However, based purely on fuel consumption, Porsche's PR people have a point. The automaker pegs consumption at 6.8 liters/100 km on the Euro cycle (down from 10.3 for the S' 4.8-liter V8), which calculates to nearly 35 mpg overall. U.S. EPA figures haven't been released yet, but figuring the Cayenne Hybrid – equipped with the same drivetrain and coming in some 600 pounds heavier – manages 20/24 mpg, a combined figure in the high 20s should be easily within reach.

So what about that drivetrain? It's a variation of the setup fitted to the aforementioned Cayenne and its Volkswagen sibling, the Touareg Hybrid. It starts with VAG's supercharged 3.0-liter V6, outputting the same 333 horsepower you'd get in the Audi S4. Sandwiched between the V6 and the eight-speed Tiptronic S automatic transmission is a 34kW (47-hp) electric motor that brings overall output up to 380 hp and makes this Panamera the world's 1st full parallel hybrid luxury sedan. The engine alone produces 325 lb-ft, but with the 221 lb-ft of torque created by the electric motor, maximum twist comes in at a claimed 428 lb-ft. The torque curves of the engine and motor meld seamlessly, with peak torque from the electric motor beginning at 1,150 rpm and bleeding off just as the ICE's supercharged torque kicks in to provide uninterrupted shove from 3,300 to 5,250 revs (redline stands at just over 6,500 rpm).

The combined effect is instant-on passing power at the drop of the throttle; not nearly as much horizon-come-hither thrust as the Turbo, but noticeably more than the V8-powered Panamera S, with it's comparatively paltry 369 lb-ft.

So yes, it's quick. And yes, it's smooth. And the eight-speed transmission is quicker and more refined than nearly anything else out of Germany or Japan. But to win on the technology and fuel economy front, the Panamera S Hybrid has to do more than just be another quick Porsche. And that's where it succeeds and surprises.

As you'd expect from any modern hybrid, the Panamera allows you to motor along under electric power as soon as you twist the key. Porsche claims you can hit speeds up to 52.8 mph in "favorable driving conditions" without ever tapping into the V6. However, even the lightest feather-foot would be lucky to max out at 15 or 20 mph before the internal combustion engine kicks in to provide additional motivation.

Try as we might, we could never get over 25 mph without having the V6 turn over, even after pressing the E-Power button to modify the throttle mapping, and we suspect that even in the mythical ideal conditions, the average driver will never get past 30 mph without gasoline assistance. But what's more impressive is the Panamera's engine shut-off at "sailing speeds." By easing off the throttle – up to a maximum of 103 mph – the V6 shuts down and the tach drops into the "Ready" mode. The transition is utterly and completely seamless (we could barely hear the engine at part throttle to begin with), and there's nary an ounce of lag or drivetrain shutter as the V6 restarts. It's easily the most fluid, refined changeover we've experienced in a gasoline-electric vehicle.

The cost of all this tech – beyond the $5,000 premium over the V8 S, marginally mitigated by additional standard features, including adaptive air suspension – is weight. The air-cooled, 288-volt nickel-metal hydride battery mounted low in the trunk only weighs in at 160 pounds, and marginally reduces trunk capacity by 110 liters, but overall weight is up over the S by nearly 400 pounds. Despite this, and thanks to an admirable 51:49 weight distribution in the only drivetrain configuration available (rear-wheel drive), the Hybrid drives as well as its conventionally powered siblings.

The electrically-assisted, speed-sensitive steering takes the prize for directness and communication, while the brakes, which come on abruptly during the first 1/4 inch of travel, smooth out to provide linear, fade-free deceleration with the slightest hint of regen. Eighteen-inch wheels with 245/50 R18 rubber in front and 275/45 R18 rollers in the rear come as standard, but the 19-inch wheels on our tester (equipped with 255/45 R19 front, 285/40 R19 rear Pilot Sport A/S Plus tires) still looked undersized when nestled into the cavernous wheel arches. And we'll be the first to admit that the "hybrid" badging on the doors looks as ostentatious as the tacked-on afterthought they are (10 minutes with a hair dryer and some dental floss should rectify that).

While cost-conscious Europeans might be more inclined to opt for the forthcoming diesel Panamera, the Hybrid S has a sort of twisted, techie appeal that we can't seem to get over. It might be slightly compromised over its V6 and V8 brethren, but the overall demeanor and driving experience comes through as pure Porsche: highly involved, remarkably well executed and drawing a bead on evolving the hybrid equation into more than just a lackluster, fuel-sipping conveyance for the environmentally conscious. It's not just a worthwhile addition to the Panamera family, it's a legitimate alternative for V8-averse luxury buyers. And knowing Porsche, it's obvious I shouldn't have worried.

 

always love the silly stuff:

of course, 8 speeder is supplied by... Toyota owned AISIN.

:-)

 

95K for the hybrid

That is about 20K more then the NA 6 cylinder version, the hybrid most likely is not going to be all that much more efficient due to it weighing over 400lbs more but it will have more power/standard features. The hybrid is 5K more then the quicker, much lighter, NA v8. I don't see any reason to pay all that extra money for the hybrid in the US unless you just want to say you drive a hybrid. In Europe and some other markets the hybrid may make more sense over the v8 if you want more power then the NA v6 because of much higher gas prices and higher taxes on bigger engined cars.

 

Yes it has 40 more hp than the GSh but it seems to be .5 slower with worse or even MPG and it costs 40 grand more (and surely this car can hit 100k+ easy depending on options).

Funny how odd this is for a Porsche. An Audi sourced S/C V-6 with hybrid drive in a 4 door 8 speed auto. This would make Porsche heads explode ten years ago let alone 30.

I'm unsure about this, I want to love it and rationalize it but its hard to. You lose some MPG with the V-8 S but it is clearly faster.

 

AISIN is owned only 30% by Toyota, less than Mazda was owned by Ford in the past. ZF 8 speed transmission is even more advanced: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission and are currently used by Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Audi and BMW. ZF is developing the world's first 9-speed automatic passenger car transmission: http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/press...ewsId=21795176

ZF’s 8-Speed Automatic Transmission - Tech Dept.
Now if six turned out to be eight . . .

BY K.C. COLWELL
December 2009

Pages: 1 Photos

ZF’s 8-Speed Automatic Transmission




The eight-speed transmission is not new to the automotive world. Toyo*ta has had one in its Lexus LS and IS F sedans for a few years. But now, transmission giant ZF is bringing eight speeds to the masses with promises of improved fuel economy.



It’s known by the folks in its hometown of Friedrichshafen, Germany, as the “8HP kit,” and this transmission offers myriad options for automakers. It is already in the BMW 760Li and 5-series GT. The new Rolls-Royce Ghost, Bentley Mulsanne, and Audi A8 will all be equipped with the 8HP when they roll out of factories in the coming year.

Four planetary gearsets combine for eight gears in all. These gearsets are engaged and disengaged by five shifting elements. Toyota’s eight-speed gearbox also has four planetary gearsets, but it uses seven shifting elements to create eight ratios—the ZF is a simpler design.

ZF uses the term “kit” because 8HP is not a single transmission but rather one transmission case with various internal, customer-selectable options. It is designed for longitudinal, or “north-south,” applications. It can be set up for rear- or all-wheel drive and facilitates hybridization by providing the option of swapping the conventional torque converter for a 47-hp electric motor, increasing fuel economy by a claimed 25 percent when compared with ZF’s old six-speed (6HP). To save weight, the electric motor can also double as the starter. Expect to see a hybrid using the 8HP by the end of 2011.

A third coupling device is available for the most-performance-driven applications: a wet multiplate clutch pack developed by ZF, which is currently found in the Mercedes-Benz E63 and SL63.

ZF designed the 8HP to replace the 6HP—of which over 5 million have been produced—and, in doing so, made the new transmission identical not only in dimension but also in weight (200 pounds). This is an important consideration, as the six-speed is widely employed in the luxury-sport ranks. The 6HP will be out of production by 2014.

ZF says the 8HP is six percent more *efficient than the outgoing sixer and nearly as efficient as a dual-clutch automated manual, which ZF also produces. However, the eight-speed is roughly 20 percent cheaper and retains the smooth, torque-converter starts to which U.S. buyers have become accustomed. Furthermore, the 8HP has a system to maintain hydraulic pressure even when the engine isn’t running and is therefore the first automatic that’s compatible with stop-start operation—good for 11 percent better fuel efficiency, says ZF. In the CAFE-conscious U.S. market, every percentage point is going to count.

 

Toyota reduced their share to 30% in AISIN and Denso in order for them to become global suppliers (and they both did become)... they are controlling the both companies being by far the biggest owners.

In fact, most of the Toyota profits come from AISIN and Denso, as well as other companies owned by Toyota.

As to the ZF, pretty obvious that Porsche chose AISIN as best supplier for their Panamera, and not ZF.

Essentially when someone buy many of the Porsche models these days, they also fund next generation Camry.


dear lord the travesty!!!

 

Essentially when someone buy many of the Porsche models these days, they also fund next generation Camry => Citation needed, not subjective opinion!

In fact, most of the Toyota profits come from AISIN and Denso, as well as other companies owned by Toyota => profits come from how Toyota manage the whole system rather than some components, it also depends on other risks.

Toyota reduced their share to 30% in AISIN and Denso in order for them to become global suppliers (and they both did become)... they are controlling the both companies being by far the biggest owners => is there any law to force Toyota to do so? if they really make big profit for Toyota as you mentioned, Toyota would never reduce their share. If you have something to make money for you, you want to control more unless there is a law to prevent you from doing so.

 

Bases at $110K up here.

Equipped how I'd want it pushes $130K. That's 4S territory....or used TT. Guess it comes down to what you want out of it because there is a version to please everyone.

 

Aisin and many others are part of Toyota Group, conglomeration of Toyota companies:
http://www.toyota-global.com/company.../toyota_group/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Group


http://www.fundinguniverse.com/compa...y-History.html


Since AISIN is Toyota Group company, it is easy to conclude that when you buy Panamera Hybrid or Diesel, you buy Aisin transmision and part of that profit goes to building of Camry.

Whats wrong with that? Porsche is great company, constantly topping reliability charts (unlike other German premium manufacturers) and obviously deserves the best.

No need to get your feelings hurt.

 

p.s. sorry guys, couldnt resist :-)

 

How many percent of parts of Porsche general or Cayenne or Panamera comes from Toyota or Japanese part suppliers? >50? or only the transmission? The most reliable car of Porsche is not Cayenne or Panamera but the 2 door Boxster: http://www.caradvice.com.au/89609/po...ports-results/
And how many percent of Boxster origin from Japanese part suppliers? Boxster used PDK (Porsche Doppelkupplungsgetriebe) transmission, not Japanese => cannot conclude anything from the most reliable car of Porsche related to Japanese parts. The majority of parts for Porsche car is still from Germany. The difference between Porsche and other German car companies is the quality management system learnt from Toyota: http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...ncy-drive.html

But the "Toyota way" is even not a perfect system on road to phenomenal worldwide growth: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021205371.html . Systematic failing in implementation of its own system leads to systematic recall of Toyota recently => compliance with the system is more important than creating the system.

 

And back on topic....