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The "four-door coupe" moniker is less of a descriptor of a car and more of a categorization aimed at different audiences than your typical executive sedan (read: business fleet) buyer. The theory is that a CLS buyer and E-Class buyer are not the same, the CLS is for the retiree who wants a coupe, while the E is for a middle manager at some firm. The Germans cover every niche in order to draw the biggest consumer base possible even if the cars overlap in what they do. Ironically Toyota did the exact same thing with the old Crown sedan, like the Crown Comfort and Crown Majesta. It's all marketing.
And here is the issue that Mike is referring to.
Previously, Toyota Motor Corp had a line of BOTH tall upright Crown sedans, against sporting luxury Lexus GS's.
Now, TMC ONLY sell Toyota Crowns, and they are all lower, more cramped, and sportier than ever, with small fastback-like trunk openings.
Don't be fooled by the longer wheelbases.
The longer wheelbases are used to nestle the engine behind the front axle for sportier more near 50:50 weight distribution.
You will find 5LS's, despite longer wheelbases, have less legroom than ever!
2018-22 Crown no longer 58.9" tall, but only 57.3" tall.
Fastback-like with a small trunk opening like old Lexus 3GS.
Notice how sporty it looks?
I would not hold my breath for a soft ride...
2023-onwards Toyota Crown sedan, even more fastback-like with a tiny trunk opening.
Look at how low profile the tires are?
I would not expect anything too practical nor comfortable...
Sales of Toyota Crown sedans have plummeted, so I suspect consumers are not interested in low roofline, cramped interior, tiny trunk opening, sporting suspension sedans.
Hence, possibly why a big move to high riding SUV wagon tailgates.
Excellent points, pete. I agree with virtually all of them...and the numbers do tell the story.
One of the reasons (but not the only one) that crossovers are so popular today is they provide the higher roofline and more interior headroom that sedans used to, but don't any more.
Plenty of sedans have rooflines that provide more than enough room to get in and out easily. That has nothing to do with the declining sales of sedans.
Excellent points, pete. I agree with virtually all of them...and the numbers do tell the story.
One of the reasons (but not the only one) that crossovers are so popular today is they provide the higher roofline and more interior headroom that sedans used to, but don't any more.
Originally Posted by SW17LS
Plenty of sedans have rooflines that provide more than enough room to get in and out easily. That has nothing to do with the declining sales of sedans.
I know what you mean.
A number of vehicles especially the current 2017-24 Camry, 2018-25 7ES, 5LS and I'm pretty sure the JDM Toyota Crown sedans - all lowered the rooflines, lowered the waistline and lowered the hip position too.
The backrests and seat squabs are now more angled from the manufacturer's diagrams below.
Thankfully, it hasn't been done on standard Benz C/E/S Class, nor standard Beamer 3/5/7 Series, but I'm quite sure the Benz AMG GT 5-door Gran Coupe, and the 4 and 8 Series 4-door gran coupes - will be affected likewise.
Not just rooflines, waistlines and seating positions, but also tiny trunk openings, firm suspension and elastic band tires - all collectively drive consumers to high riding vehicles with wagen tailgates.
I drove an RZ and it has poor range and a plain FWD-based chassis, but it was so smooth riding with excellent sound insulation - unlike the NX with similar exterior dimensions.
Exaggerating to the extreme...
Last edited by peteharvey; May 2, 2024 at 11:28 PM.
What you’re seeing now is carmakers trying to make a case for sedans. Crossovers have the crowd that wants practicality, they need to appeal to those who want style, performance, sportiness etc.
I think you guys just have to accept that vehicle design like everything else goes through trends and fashion. Those cars look like what they are…30 year old cars…
Based on the 1991-98 Corolla sedan, the 1992-98 Toyota Corolla Ceres sporty hardtop with lowered roofline, lowered waistline, lowered driving position, frameless windows, cozy interior and sports suspension is >30 years old - but it looks like it just fell out of the Space Shuttle...
Based on the 1991-98 Corolla sedan, the 1992-98 Toyota Corolla Ceres sporty hardtop with lowered roofline, lowered waistline, lowered driving position, frameless windows, cozy interior and sports suspension is >30 years old - but it looks like it just fell out of the Space Shuttle...
Below, these three Benzes are based on the same platform with the 2016-23 W213: E Class, CLS and AMG GT 5-door gran coupe.
All three are essentially sedans, but that's where the similarities end...
The AMG GT gran coupe has a fractionally longer wheelbase than the former two.
Thus, there is good reason as to why manufacturers go to all the trouble of making multiple variations of their sedans.
Hence, we can't just turn a blind eye and sweep it under the carpet.
They do have a term, and it is 4-door coupe or gran coupe.
Back in the 1980's, Mazda called theirs a "Hardtop", despite adding a B-pillar.
4-door gran coupes sells in niche numbers.
Hence, the demise of sporty 4-door gran coupes, more so than mainstream sedans.
It's not just the swoopy styling, low roofline, low waistline, low seating position, lower ground clearance, for a lower Center of Gravity to minimise roll to mimimize weight transfer to the outside wheels to maximize grip - nor the shorter overhangs to minimise Polar Moment of Inertia to maximize the speed of change of direction - all at the cost of interior space.
It is also the tiny trunk openings to maximize torsional rigidity & bending stiffness, the front mid-engine layout behind the front axle to maximize near 50/50 weight distribution to maximize grip albeit compromizing the cabin length, plus the firm suspension to minimise weight transfer to maximize grip, and the rubber band tires to minimise flex to speed-up steering response - with both firm suspension & rubber band tires coming at the cost of ride & quietness.
On the 31st of Agust last year, after only 5 years on the market, the 3rd gen CLS was axed.
They say that two is company, but three is a crowd...
Last edited by peteharvey; May 3, 2024 at 02:36 AM.
But making the connection between that styling driving low sales is difficult given which "traditional" sedans have remained fully upright and boxy and which have gone a little bit more swoopy.
Toyota: Avalon stayed squared off, discontinued due to poor sales. Camry continues.
Chevrolet: Impala stayed squared off, discontinued due to poor sales. Incredibly inferior but curvy Malibu remains
Subaru: Perhaps the boxiest sedan of all discontinued due to poor sales.
Ford: Taurus sales dropped 90% when it went from the last curvy model (6th gen?) to the big, squared off version (which spent 2 years as the Five Hundred). First sedan Ford cancelled.
Buick: Brand comprised almost entirely of traditional sedans essentially dissolved and reborn as SUV-only.
The overall market for sedans has shrunk dramatically. Automakers are doing all they can to save what they can, or just exiting the market altogether.
But making the connection between that styling driving low sales is difficult given which "traditional" sedans have remained fully upright and boxy and which have gone a little bit more swoopy.
Toyota: Avalon stayed squared off, discontinued due to poor sales. Camry continues.
Chevrolet: Impala stayed squared off, discontinued due to poor sales. Incredibly inferior but curvy Malibu remains
Subaru: Perhaps the boxiest sedan of all discontinued due to poor sales.
Ford: Taurus sales dropped 90% when it went from the last curvy model (6th gen?) to the big, squared off version (which spent 2 years as the Five Hundred). First sedan Ford cancelled.
Buick: Brand comprised almost entirely of traditional sedans essentially dissolved and reborn as SUV-only.
The overall market for sedans has shrunk dramatically. Automakers are doing all they can to save what they can, or just exiting the market altogether.
It only makes sense if you refuse to accept that people stopped buying sedans because they just didnt like them anymore lol
It only makes sense if you refuse to accept that people stopped buying sedans because they just didnt like them anymore lol
IMO, people didn't like sedans anymore because many models became too sporty.
Eg, the 5LS used its massive wheelbase for a front mid-engine layout for nearer 50/50 weight distribution to maximize handling - at the expense of cabin length and rear legroom.
I've spent thousands retrofitting softer midlife refresh suspension spec, downsizing to 18", and now possibly downsizing further to 17" on my 4GS RWD.
Below are original 2013 4GS RWD front coils vs 2016-20 midlife refresh which partially returned to being slightly softer and fractionally quieter vehicle.
The mid-life refresh has a 1" taller unsprung axial height, because it is a softer spring rate to provide the same sprung vehicle ride height.
If the softer spring rate had the same unsprung axial height, then when sprung, it would have a lower ride height, and as we know, 4GS and 4.5GS midlife refresh has the exact same ride height.
4GS AWD and 450h hybrids have their own springing and damping rates and were said to be softer than RWD versions.
A costly exercise retrofitting suspension spec for a softer ride.
You think you'll get a softer ride trading-in for a brand new 2024 7ES?
You'll be surprized how firmly sprung and firmly damped the 2024 7ES is!
7ES also has "pinched tail" styling with a smaller and shallower trunk.
Hence, the booming popularity of high riding vehicles with wagen tailgates...
Last edited by peteharvey; May 3, 2024 at 08:57 AM.
IMO, people didn't like sedans anymore because many models became too sporty.
Eg, the 5LS used its massive wheelbase for a front mid-engine layout for nearer 50/50 weight distribution to maximize handling - at the expense of cabin length and rear legroom.
No one is going to argue with you that Lexus completely missed the mark on the 5LS. But if you look at the broader market and which cars have been discontinued vs. those that are still with us, your premise does not hold. All the LEAST "styled" sedans are gone first, because they weren't selling. This very thread topic is about one of the most traditional, upright, boxy sedans being discontinued because no one will buy it. By your logic, people should have been flocking to the Legacy because the Camry is swoopy now. But they're not. They're still buying the Camry, just in lower numbers than before because sales of ALL sedans are falling.
Where is the Avalon? The Impala? The Taurus? the entire Buick lineup? All were exactly what you suggest the market really wants. All gone because no one actually did want them. Just like the Legacy.
I'm not a sedan hater by any stretch. That's all I've owned for a quarter century without exception, so you might say I'm a bit of a fan. But I can recognize that my preferences are not the predominant ones anymore. That's why I waited 8 months to buy the last RWD, manual transmission sedan that will ever be made by anyone.
IMO, people didn't like sedans anymore because many models became too sporty.
Eg, the 5LS used its massive wheelbase for a front mid-engine layout for nearer 50/50 weight distribution to maximize handling - at the expense of cabin length and rear legroom.
I've spent thousands retrofitting softer midlife refresh suspension spec, downsizing to 18", and now possibly downsizing further to 17" on my 4GS RWD.
Below are original 2013 4GS RWD front coils vs 2016-20 midlife refresh which partially returned to being slightly softer and fractionally quieter vehicle.
The mid-life refresh has a 1" taller unsprung axial height, because it is a softer spring rate to provide the same sprung vehicle ride height.
If the softer spring rate had the same unsprung axial height, then when sprung, it would have a lower ride height, and as we know, 4GS and 4.5GS midlife refresh has the exact same ride height.
4GS AWD and 450h hybrids have their own springing and damping rates and were said to be softer than RWD versions.
A costly exercise retrofitting suspension spec for a softer ride.
You think you'll get a softer ride trading-in for a brand new 2024 7ES?
You'll be surprized how firmly sprung and firmly damped the 2024 7ES is!
7ES also has "pinched tail" styling with a smaller and shallower trunk.
Hence, the booming popularity of high riding vehicles with wagen tailgates...
Chevy Malibu / Cruz, Ford Taurus / Fusion, Subaru Legacy, Buick Lucerne / Regal / Verano didn't become too sporty.
IMO, people didn't like sedans anymore because many models became too sporty.
The shift towards crossovers began LONG before the 5LS, this has been happening over the last 20 years, sales of the LS as an example dramatically dropped within the LS430 generation and the LS460 generation.
Carmakers don't make products people don't want. If the market were saying sedans are too sporty, manufacturers would have reversed course there. Reality is, the mainstream consumer overwhelmingly has been abandoning sedans for 20 years, and carmakers are adapting sedans to have a selling proposition beyond comfort, because the consumer who wants comfort and practicality buys crossovers
Toyota and Lexus Join Mille Miglia For The First Time
Slideshow: A five-car lineup spanning more than five decades of Toyota performance and engineering will tackle one of Italy's most celebrated automotive routes.
