what do you mean they did it for years? they certainly never built anything to really compete with GLS or X7.

i assume you're referring to the LS (vs s-class), and maybe the GS (vs e-class and 5 series), but that's about it?

i think this has largely been the case for almost all of lexus' existence. the ES is a camry +. the IS is unique to lexus, but not really a 3 series fighter. the RX was unique when it came out and did very well, but obviously bmw/mb are not worried now as they have competitive products.

so i don't think lexus has moved much, but i think the competition has improved massively.

about the LS vs s-class 'back in the day' - we've discussed many times... the LS was a benchmark of build quality and refinement, although lacking features you could get on an s-class. of course mb fought back quickly and vigorously and the s-class is just way ahead now, it's not that the LS got worse, imo, although the current LS, we agree, is tight on space.

 

The IRS hasn't updated their list for 2024, and to my knowledge the TX PHEV hasn't even went on sale yet. The TX PHEV satisfies the built-in-US and under $80K MSRP threshold in base form. The only question is how much of the battery is sourced and assembled in the U.S. (current requirement for the full $7.5K is 50%).

 

@bitkahuna how does the IS not compete with the 3 Series? It directly competes.

The landscape has changed, the GLS and X7 didn’t exist. Crossovers are the new sedans, Lexus did have the LS, GS, IS and SC that all competed well, not only in sales but they consistently won in comparison tests. Today the equivalent of those cars would be vehicles that compete with the GLE/GLS and X5/X7.

It’s not just the platforms it’s the quality of the product itself. My 4ES for instance had great materials inside, very little hard plastic. The first RX was also very high quality and nobody would confuse it for a Toyota from a quality standpoint.

This TX, with the badge covered up you would never know it was a Lexus.

And no, the LS got worse. It’s not just that the Germans are much better but the LS500 is just a big step down from the LS460 in comfort, refinement, ride, noise isolation etc.

 

That article is dated Jan 3 2024.

 

That article only discusses vehicles currently in production, not new ones not yet on sale like the TX PHEV. Again, the only question mark for the TX PHEV's qualifications for the tax credit is where the battery is sourced and built. We don't know for sure until the IRS releases an updated list for 2024 models.

 

yes, the battery is the unknown, but I suspect that they kept it under 80k for qualifying reasons. The bummer in doing a build was that I can't get the heads up display and keep it under 80k, which I am really used to on my RX, otherwise it has all the features I want. I was able to include a dashcam.

 

Yep, that was the sentiment I echoed a few posts above as to why it's been decontented compared to the 500h F-Sport.

 

You don’t have to worry about keeping the price under $80k, it’s the base price of the vehicle.

 

Disagree completely. I don't think anyone on this forum is a bigger 3-series guy than me, given that I've owned/driven them exclusively for almost 25 years. I cross-shopped the 1st and 2nd gen IS extensively multiple times over that period, coming very close to buying on a couple of occasions.

 

it never really has. bmw always had coupe and sedan versions, m version, etc. IS was never competitive in handling, overall feel. not denying the IS was/is nice, just different... the lexus way. i doubt bmw ever worried about the IS.

you're free to believe what you wish of course, but i don't agree. the LS definitely stole some s-class sales for sure, but i doubt the gs/is/sc stole many 5-series/3-series/sl? sales. again nice cars.

comparison tests were to sell magazines back in the day with 'fans' on each side cheering on their fave. in the market i doubt it made any difference. why do i say this? because i've known TONS of mb/bmw owners who NEVER considered getting a lexus. even if they did supposedly 'compete' the price points were generally a lot lower, so not really competing. love lexus, but never a really serious luxury brand. one glaring issue is the endless 'sport' trims and accessories they've done. remember "L-tuned"? disaster. they tried some "TRD" stuff. #fail. you'd have more luck asking a dealer where sasquatch was than try to get answers about l-tuned. even the "f-sport" trim is mostly a joke. then there's lack of customization.

lexus competes in the view of lexus fans who wanted lexus to be considered "tier-1" which i've always felt was nonsense. lexus has their niche.

about ls vs s-class... you can say it competed all you want, and it was compelling to you back in the day and until you went to an s-class, but putting the ls500 aside, even if lexus came out with a new one that was appealing to you, they would unlikely have the range of models/options and features to actually compete.

4ES or 4GS? regardless, i know you have a thing against hard plastic but even mercedes is using it now.

actually it wasn't and i certainly didn't. i owned one! it wasn't even close to my gs in material quality. had trim bits fall off and there was lots of hard plastic in it. i loved it though, although the engine got very noisy as the years went on despite regular maintenance. now my 2GS, that was a tank.

i bet if someone gets in a grand highlander, then a tx, there will be no confusion.

 

but you didn't. QED

 

They can compete with the Germans, but not at every price point.

GS = Aristo
IS = Altezza
UX = Corolla based
RX = Highlander
NX = RAV4
LX = Land Cruiser
GX = Prado
LBX - Yaris Cross
LC500...Old SC was the Celsior or something. Would you call the LC the successor to the SC?
LS = Crown or something

 

Umm it is a $60k car. You have the OPTION to option it up to $80k with different packages and powertrains. No one said you HAVE to or only buy the $80k model.

 

Yea I test drove both the GH and TX weeks apart. The TX is definitely worth the premium over the GH. NVH is a few steps higher and the material quality, while dark and dull, is of very nice quality. You may have walked in WANTING a GLS and X7 competitor. I walked in expecting a GH with a Lexus badge, which is far from the truth. It is a GH that Lexus elevated to their luxury standards and refinement. And of course I stand by what I said based on my experience and you are certainly to stand by yours. Whoever the buyer is, needs to walk in there unbiased and untainted by the internet and their silly wants.

Folks its a $60k car that can be optioned all the way up to $80k with a V6 plug in. You can whine until you turn blue, but this isnt and was never intended to compete with the GLS and X7.

 

I just don't agree,

What I said was they competed well, and they did.

If Lexus came out with a car that had the space and ride characteristics of the S Class and a smooth V8, I would absolutely go back to Lexus. I don't need the range of models and options, 90% of S Class sales are what I have.

Both. And Mercedes is not using hard plastic on their upper end models.

Wasn't close to the GS but it was a very high quality vehicle compared to other vehicles it competed with, and it launched an entire segment of cars.

I just did it, and like I said take the Lexus badge off the TX and you wouldn't know it was a Lexus. Its nicer inside than the GH, but the GH is not as nice inside as the other competitors in the segment. A high spec Palisade or Telluride is nicer inside than the TX, and WAY better than the GH.

If you're going to extole the virtues of Lexus, at least understand the brand, your description of the models shows you don't, which is likely why you don't understand our frustration.

The 1GS and Aristo were designed together as the same vehicle, it was sold in Japan as the Aristo (which was an existing model name) but that was only because Lexus did not exist in Japan.

This is correct for the 1IS, but the 2IS and beyond that were designed specifically to be Lexus models.

That would be one of the vehicles that frustrates me yes.

Wrong. The RX was concieved and designed as a clean sheet vehicle for Lexus, it shared the basic chassis and drivetrain with the Camry of the time and it was sold in Japan as the Toyota Harrier. The Harrier and the RX parted ways and now the Harrier is a JDM version of the Toyota Venza. The Highlander came out 2 years after the RX and was based off of the same Camry platform but they have never been the same vehicle.

Another one of those problematic vehicles

Wrong. The SC was sold in Japan as the Toyota Soarer, again a nameplate that existed already but the 1SC was designed as a clean sheet Lexus design and was sold in Japan as the Soarer because Lexus did not exist in Japan.

Seriously? The LS was sold in Japan as the Toyota Celsior, but again it was designed from the ground up to be a Lexus, that was the whole point of Lexus and over $1B was invested in its design, it was sold as the Celsior in Japan because again Lexus did not exist there.

You think Lexus has always been this way but thats because you don't know as much about the brand as you think you do.