PPE V8 Headers GS, LS, SC
12-03-10, 11:25 AM
#61
I was thinking the same thing about the cracking. To answer your question, no, it wasn't corrected with the second batch either. They still had some crack, I waited until the 3rd batch because of the cost of installation which I got a great deal by the way.
12-03-10, 11:38 AM
#62
we got 17 now BTW 
slowly inching to 20 
thats VERY true and i dont recall anyone ever asking them....
i just looked at this info though and i dunno but if they using they same gauge steel wouldnt we have the same issues?
from this thread, post # 8
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...s-exhaust.html
i wonder if OP will have any issues like they did in this thread...post # 1
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...nt-design.html
i will PM OP and see if its possible to get them made in 14 gauge and see if he will answer here also PM'ed jbrady as he knows alot on this subject.
this is the PM i sent to both of them
slowly inching to 20 thats VERY true and i dont recall anyone ever asking them....
i just looked at this info though and i dunno but if they using they same gauge steel wouldnt we have the same issues?
from this thread, post # 8
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...s-exhaust.html
i wonder if OP will have any issues like they did in this thread...post # 1
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...nt-design.html
i will PM OP and see if its possible to get them made in 14 gauge and see if he will answer here also PM'ed jbrady as he knows alot on this subject.
this is the PM i sent to both of them
I don't want any of my CL brothers to have to go through that again. Good catch sakataj
12-03-10, 11:54 AM
#63
be back for the info...probably monday. i gotta get some work done today
12-03-10, 11:57 AM
#64
didnt know they made a 3rd batch....have ONLY ever heard of the first/second batch
me too....i sent it to both of them. im leaving it off the GB ATM but this is a concern to me. i mean if he makes them out of 16 gauge it seems like to me (and im sure PPE and JBRADY can clarify) that we would have the same issue but maybe not. i dunno...
be back for the info...probably monday. i gotta get some work done today
me too....i sent it to both of them. im leaving it off the GB ATM but this is a concern to me. i mean if he makes them out of 16 gauge it seems like to me (and im sure PPE and JBRADY can clarify) that we would have the same issue but maybe not. i dunno...
be back for the info...probably monday. i gotta get some work done today
12-03-10, 12:01 PM
#65
well, hopefully they will post it in here. i know if i post it in the GB its gonna create pandemonium so im hoping to avoid that. im in on the GB and im not wanting to de-rail his sale but this honestly is a concern for me as im sure it will be for others.
thanks for the heads up nar8ta
thanks for the heads up nar8ta
12-03-10, 12:12 PM
#67
well, hopefully they will post it in here. i know if i post it in the GB its gonna create pandemonium so im hoping to avoid that. im in on the GB and im not wanting to de-rail his sale but this honestly is a concern for me as im sure it will be for others.
thanks for the heads up nar8ta
thanks for the heads up nar8ta
Yeah I didn't post this to mess up PPE's sale, but if he can right the construction flaw of the past before production goes in full swing then he will still make money and his customers will be happy with the product. We can both have a happy medium. I'm under the impression that he doesn't know about the flaw.
12-03-10, 12:57 PM
#68
is it possible you could address this issue narta and i have been speaking of in posts #58-60
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...ml#post5972187
if these are being made in the same 16 gauge (0.065 inch tubing wall thickness) wouldnt we have the same issues S&S had on the first run of their headers? wouldnt it be more appropriate to use 14 gauge (0.083 inch tubing wall thickness) so we DONT have the same issues S&S did?
brian
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...ml#post5972187
if these are being made in the same 16 gauge (0.065 inch tubing wall thickness) wouldnt we have the same issues S&S had on the first run of their headers? wouldnt it be more appropriate to use 14 gauge (0.083 inch tubing wall thickness) so we DONT have the same issues S&S did?
brian
Our design is much stronger. We don't have the mitered merges that the 4-2-1 design had and we weld both sides of the head and outlet flanges (S&S only welded the inside of the head flange and the outside of the outlet flange)
We are also including some aluminum spacers that replace the rubber mounts for the bracket that supports the catalytic converters. This will also take stress off the header.
One thing we did notice, is that every car that came in for test fitting had broken/torn motor and tranny mounts. This is something that will cause a lot of stress on the header. They are easily replaced when installing the header too. Its a good thing to look out for when you are installing your headers.
12-03-10, 02:43 PM
#69
We make all of our headers out of 16 gauge (0.065") mild steel tubing. It is plenty strong for this application. S&S changed over to 14 gauge on one tube to try and strengthen the design. The design itself had several week spots that were prone to cracking. The two merges were the weakest areas. We have a couple of the cracked headers here that we studied.
Our design is much stronger. We don't have the mitered merges that the 4-2-1 design had and we weld both sides of the head and outlet flanges (S&S only welded the inside of the head flange and the outside of the outlet flange)
We are also including some aluminum spacers that replace the rubber mounts for the bracket that supports the catalytic converters. This will also take stress off the header.
One thing we did notice, is that every car that came in for test fitting had broken/torn motor and tranny mounts. This is something that will cause a lot of stress on the header. They are easily replaced when installing the header too. Its a good thing to look out for when you are installing your headers.
Our design is much stronger. We don't have the mitered merges that the 4-2-1 design had and we weld both sides of the head and outlet flanges (S&S only welded the inside of the head flange and the outside of the outlet flange)
We are also including some aluminum spacers that replace the rubber mounts for the bracket that supports the catalytic converters. This will also take stress off the header.
One thing we did notice, is that every car that came in for test fitting had broken/torn motor and tranny mounts. This is something that will cause a lot of stress on the header. They are easily replaced when installing the header too. Its a good thing to look out for when you are installing your headers.
thats a good idea about the rubber mounts....never considered the stress here either
thats a issue i dont think ANYONE ever addressed.... the stress the ripped and torn motor/tranny mounts will put on the headers. so i wonder if people had replaced their motor mounts when they did this (like they should and like i will be doing as i have known my engine mounts have been shot for awhile) had they had so many issues with the S&S headers.
OFF THE TOPIC A TAD....did you ever get a SC in to test fit them?
12-03-10, 04:33 PM
#70
We make all of our headers out of 16 gauge (0.065") mild steel tubing. It is plenty strong for this application. S&S changed over to 14 gauge on one tube to try and strengthen the design. The design itself had several week spots that were prone to cracking. The two merges were the weakest areas. We have a couple of the cracked headers here that we studied.
Our design is much stronger. We don't have the mitered merges that the 4-2-1 design had and we weld both sides of the head and outlet flanges (S&S only welded the inside of the head flange and the outside of the outlet flange)
We are also including some aluminum spacers that replace the rubber mounts for the bracket that supports the catalytic converters. This will also take stress off the header.
One thing we did notice, is that every car that came in for test fitting had broken/torn motor and tranny mounts. This is something that will cause a lot of stress on the header. They are easily replaced when installing the header too. Its a good thing to look out for when you are installing your headers.
Our design is much stronger. We don't have the mitered merges that the 4-2-1 design had and we weld both sides of the head and outlet flanges (S&S only welded the inside of the head flange and the outside of the outlet flange)
We are also including some aluminum spacers that replace the rubber mounts for the bracket that supports the catalytic converters. This will also take stress off the header.
One thing we did notice, is that every car that came in for test fitting had broken/torn motor and tranny mounts. This is something that will cause a lot of stress on the header. They are easily replaced when installing the header too. Its a good thing to look out for when you are installing your headers.
What type of guarantee can you give us that this to will not happen and if so, what type of recourse can we expect. In other words how far are you willing to stand by your product? Again this is not personal, I just don't want to see people including my self get burnt.
Hopefully Jbrady can chime in because he was in the mist of the header issue and gave many people good info.
Last edited by nar8ta; 12-03-10 at 04:42 PM.
12-03-10, 04:44 PM
#71
although i havent ever heard of a 3rd batch of S&S headers as i always heard the problems were corrected with the 2nd batch of S&S headers making them thicker, Lexizm (a older,established member) is saying that even thickening them didnt fix the issue of cracking so how is it your 16 gauge will with stand the heat/stress? the extra welds will make this strong enough for our applications? so they only change the gauge thickness on ONE pipe and not on the whole 2nd application? i wonder how long the people had the S&S headers on before they cracked? i PM'ed TAMR_GUS98 to ask him as i dont think i ever saw it from anyone
thats a good idea about the rubber mounts....never considered the stress here either
thats a issue i dont think ANYONE ever addressed.... the stress the ripped and torn motor/tranny mounts will put on the headers. so i wonder if people had replaced their motor mounts when they did this (like they should and like i will be doing as i have known my engine mounts have been shot for awhile) had they had so many issues with the S&S headers.
OFF THE TOPIC A TAD....did you ever get a SC in to test fit them?
thats a good idea about the rubber mounts....never considered the stress here either
thats a issue i dont think ANYONE ever addressed.... the stress the ripped and torn motor/tranny mounts will put on the headers. so i wonder if people had replaced their motor mounts when they did this (like they should and like i will be doing as i have known my engine mounts have been shot for awhile) had they had so many issues with the S&S headers.
OFF THE TOPIC A TAD....did you ever get a SC in to test fit them?
12-05-10, 07:57 PM
#72
Lexus Champion
I am hesitant to post on PPE's thread because it is common for misunderstandings to occur. That said I have been specifically asked to comment here. Let me note that I am not currently building headers and do not have a "side" but would like to make the effort to clarify a couple things posted as well as add my OPINION.
They were 2 designs of the S&S headers but more than 2 batches. The first "batch" or run followed by another run of the original design due to demand of roughly 20 more sets. It took a while for the cracking to show up. Most, including myself and S&S, were surprised where the cracks happened. Not on a weld, not at the first two merges but at the 3rd merge, on a straight pipe section very close to the weld. Welding heats the metal and changes its properties and the metal near the weld became more brittle. The cracking resulted in S&S warranting all returns and a change in construction to thicker tubing. This change represents the 2nd DESIGN not “batch”. This was the design shipped to MOST people with cracking if not all.
Shorty style headers with relatively short and different length tubes will have different rates of expansion between the tubes. The shorter tubes have less material length to absorb the stress of this expansion. Coupled with the vibration, jarring of the suspension, engine twisting and the like add to the possibility that the headers may crack. Damaged mounts allow more twisting and motion increasing stress.
As I posted before I am unaware of any failures or cracking with the S&S headers after going from 16 gauge (0.065”) to 14 gauge (0.083”) wall thickness tubing. I am not certain if S&S used 14 gauge on the 1.5” tube sections or just the 1.75” tube sections that had the original cracking problem.
PPE's design is of course a 4-1 design so where and how the stresses happen will be different than the S&S. I do not want to second guess PPE here but I would probably suggest going with the 14 gauge myself as a precaution. Cost should not be prohibitive other than they may not stock 14 gauge so buying small amounts for this one design may be a hassle. Of course if cracking does happen the hassle would be in hindsight less so than the warranty costs. I am NOT suggesting that their current plans will lead to cracking. I just think it would make more members comfortable with making a purchase now instead of waiting. That said even 14 gauge is not a guarantee against cracking.
Here is reading on the S&S cracking problem:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...-header-2.html
They were 2 designs of the S&S headers but more than 2 batches. The first "batch" or run followed by another run of the original design due to demand of roughly 20 more sets. It took a while for the cracking to show up. Most, including myself and S&S, were surprised where the cracks happened. Not on a weld, not at the first two merges but at the 3rd merge, on a straight pipe section very close to the weld. Welding heats the metal and changes its properties and the metal near the weld became more brittle. The cracking resulted in S&S warranting all returns and a change in construction to thicker tubing. This change represents the 2nd DESIGN not “batch”. This was the design shipped to MOST people with cracking if not all.
Shorty style headers with relatively short and different length tubes will have different rates of expansion between the tubes. The shorter tubes have less material length to absorb the stress of this expansion. Coupled with the vibration, jarring of the suspension, engine twisting and the like add to the possibility that the headers may crack. Damaged mounts allow more twisting and motion increasing stress.
As I posted before I am unaware of any failures or cracking with the S&S headers after going from 16 gauge (0.065”) to 14 gauge (0.083”) wall thickness tubing. I am not certain if S&S used 14 gauge on the 1.5” tube sections or just the 1.75” tube sections that had the original cracking problem.
PPE's design is of course a 4-1 design so where and how the stresses happen will be different than the S&S. I do not want to second guess PPE here but I would probably suggest going with the 14 gauge myself as a precaution. Cost should not be prohibitive other than they may not stock 14 gauge so buying small amounts for this one design may be a hassle. Of course if cracking does happen the hassle would be in hindsight less so than the warranty costs. I am NOT suggesting that their current plans will lead to cracking. I just think it would make more members comfortable with making a purchase now instead of waiting. That said even 14 gauge is not a guarantee against cracking.
Here is reading on the S&S cracking problem:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/per...-header-2.html
12-06-10, 08:14 AM
#73
I am hesitant to post on PPE's thread because it is common for misunderstandings to occur. That said I have been specifically asked to comment here. Let me note that I am not currently building headers and do not have a "side" but would like to make the effort to clarify a couple things posted as well as add my OPINION.
As I posted before I am unaware of any failures or cracking with the S&S headers after going from 16 gauge (0.065”) to 14 gauge (0.083”) wall thickness tubing. I am not certain if S&S used 14 gauge on the 1.5” tube sections or just the 1.75” tube sections that had the original cracking problem.
PPE's design is of course a 4-1 design so where and how the stresses happen will be different than the S&S. I do not want to second guess PPE here but I would probably suggest going with the 14 gauge myself as a precaution. Cost should not be prohibitive other than they may not stock 14 gauge so buying small amounts for this one design may be a hassle. Of course if cracking does happen the hassle would be in hindsight less so than the warranty costs. I am NOT suggesting that their current plans will lead to cracking. I just think it would make more members comfortable with making a purchase now instead of waiting. That said even 14 gauge is not a guarantee against cracking.
As I posted before I am unaware of any failures or cracking with the S&S headers after going from 16 gauge (0.065”) to 14 gauge (0.083”) wall thickness tubing. I am not certain if S&S used 14 gauge on the 1.5” tube sections or just the 1.75” tube sections that had the original cracking problem.
PPE's design is of course a 4-1 design so where and how the stresses happen will be different than the S&S. I do not want to second guess PPE here but I would probably suggest going with the 14 gauge myself as a precaution. Cost should not be prohibitive other than they may not stock 14 gauge so buying small amounts for this one design may be a hassle. Of course if cracking does happen the hassle would be in hindsight less so than the warranty costs. I am NOT suggesting that their current plans will lead to cracking. I just think it would make more members comfortable with making a purchase now instead of waiting. That said even 14 gauge is not a guarantee against cracking.
as you said, it may or may not help being built with the 14 gauge but i think it will make us feel better. i mean could i pay a little extra to get mine made in 14 gauge? i mean i know the hassles (or i can imagine the hassles) people went through of installing these, driving on them for awhile, having to take them off to be re-welded MULTIPLE times for some people, and then removing them again to mount the newer style of the S&S headers, its just a hassle i personally dont want ANY of us to go through and NO im not implying their design is flawed and it would crack but its a thought on alot of our minds i would think especially now that we have been talking bout this
i have been behind this GB since i saw it,but i might be a little hesitant to even put them on after i buy them,atleast till i see more miles from azcamber (the first person to have some) to see if he has issues as this is not a easy DIY or a fun one to do for the guys who have done it. it is manageable but takes a few hours.
i sent OP a PM as i dont know if he is following this thread
Last edited by sakataj; 12-06-10 at 08:18 AM.
12-06-10, 11:37 AM
#74
ty so much for your response jbrady....i came to you as i know you had were a great hand in helping develop the S&S headers and you seem to know ALOT bout exhuast gas/piping/etc etc
as you said, it may or may not help being built with the 14 gauge but i think it will make us feel better. i mean could i pay a little extra to get mine made in 14 gauge? i mean i know the hassles (or i can imagine the hassles) people went through of installing these, driving on them for awhile, having to take them off to be re-welded MULTIPLE times for some people, and then removing them again to mount the newer style of the S&S headers, its just a hassle i personally dont want ANY of us to go through and NO im not implying their design is flawed and it would crack but its a thought on alot of our minds i would think especially now that we have been talking bout this
i have been behind this GB since i saw it,but i might be a little hesitant to even put them on after i buy them,atleast till i see more miles from azcamber (the first person to have some) to see if he has issues as this is not a easy DIY or a fun one to do for the guys who have done it. it is manageable but takes a few hours.
i sent OP a PM as i dont know if he is following this thread
as you said, it may or may not help being built with the 14 gauge but i think it will make us feel better. i mean could i pay a little extra to get mine made in 14 gauge? i mean i know the hassles (or i can imagine the hassles) people went through of installing these, driving on them for awhile, having to take them off to be re-welded MULTIPLE times for some people, and then removing them again to mount the newer style of the S&S headers, its just a hassle i personally dont want ANY of us to go through and NO im not implying their design is flawed and it would crack but its a thought on alot of our minds i would think especially now that we have been talking bout this
i have been behind this GB since i saw it,but i might be a little hesitant to even put them on after i buy them,atleast till i see more miles from azcamber (the first person to have some) to see if he has issues as this is not a easy DIY or a fun one to do for the guys who have done it. it is manageable but takes a few hours.
i sent OP a PM as i dont know if he is following this thread
I agree. I think it would be a safer bet to go with 14ga just as a precaution. I don't like the idea of down the rode maybe having to go through the same problems that the guys with S&S had to go through.
